Charges for rescue - NH

[Para_Frog]

Thoughts? I mean besides never doing Es in New Hampshire.

At least not just BASE jumpers are getting phuqued.


October 29, 2009
Hikers in NH must be prepared _ or pay for rescue

By NORMA LOVE
Associated Press Writer
Stranded with a sprained ankle on a snow-covered mountain, Eagle Scout Scott Mason put his survival skills to work by sleeping in the crevice of a boulder and jump-starting evergreen fires with hand sanitizer gel.
He put plastic bags inside his boots to keep his feet dry as he sloshed through mountain runoff hidden beneath waist-deep snow. After three cold days last April, rescue crews spotted him hiking toward the summit of Mount Washington, the Northeast's highest mountain.
New Hampshire officials praised his resourcefulness. So grateful was he for his rescuers that Mason, 17, sent $1,000 to the state.
Sometime later, New Hampshire sent him a bill: $25,734.65 for the cost of rescuing him.
New Hampshire is one of eight states with laws allowing billing for rescue costs, but only New Hampshire has made frequent attempts to do so — even strengthening its law last year to allow the suspension of hiking, fishing and driver's licenses of those who don't pay, according to an Associated Press review.
National search and rescue organizations insist just the possibility of being billed is dangerous policy. Hikers may delay calling for help while they think about the cost, and that could put them — and the mostly volunteer corps of rescuers — at greater risk.
Other states with laws allowing them to recoup costs rarely, if ever, enforce them, largely for that reason, the AP found.
"If it had happened in Colorado, he would have been applauded for being able to survive for three days," said Paul "Woody" Woodward, president of Colorado's Alpine Rescue Team. "New Hampshire is way out on their own on this one."
New Hampshire officials counter that being properly prepared — not the size of the scout's bill — should be the message about visiting wilderness areas. And, fish and game officials say, many of the state's trailheads are posted with signs warning hikers they may be billed for rescue costs if they aren't properly prepared.
Mason, now an 18-year-high school senior, from Halifax, Mass., has hired a lawyer to try to negotiate a settlement. Officials said he was found to be negligent because he veered off the marked path, was unprepared for melting snow that made a shortcut perilous and went up the mountain with an injured ankle, not down.
The bill included more than $24,000 for a helicopter and labor provided by state fish and game officers. Volunteers provided their time at no charge.
Three states besides New Hampshire — Hawaii, Oregon and Maine — have general laws allowing agencies to bill for rescues. Only Maine has attempted to recoup money a handful of times and the bills were never paid. California, Vermont, Colorado and Idaho have laws allowing state agencies to bill in limited circumstances, but the laws are rarely enforced — and when they are, draw a firestorm of protest from search and rescue groups.
Two years ago, the fire department in Golden, Colo., rescued a hiker from Kansas who had sprained his ankle and later billed him for $5,135. The outcry from national search and rescue groups influenced the city to change its policy and settle with the hiker for 10 percent of the bill.
Only New Hampshire has consistently billed people. Last year, lawmakers increased the likelihood of being billed when they lowered the legal standard from reckless to negligent to make it easier to collect.
Records obtained by The Associated Press from a Freedom of Information Act request found that New Hampshire spent $413,543 on 275 rescue missions over the past two years. The state issued 16 bills for rescues totaling $41,435 — with Mason's $25,000 bill the largest. The state spent far more, $59,426, on a December 2007 search that was not billed. In that case, the body of the 70-year-old hunter was found four months later. His family was not billed.
"We're not going out there with the intent to bill everyone," insists Fish and Game Maj. Timothy Acerno.
Policies vary across the country on penalizing people who ignore weather warnings, don't carry flashlights on long hikes, fail to leave itineraries, ski out of bounds or are otherwise unprepared or act irresponsibly.
If Mason had gotten lost in a National Park, his rescue would have been free, said David Barna, chief of public affairs for the National Park Service.
New Hampshire officials stress they only bill those who are negligent.
Acerno said that experienced search and rescue volunteers and fish and game staff consider what a reasonable person would have done and measure the person's actions against a hiker responsibility code that calls for knowing the terrain and conditions, taking proper gear, leaving an itinerary and turning back if conditions change. The attorney general's office makes the final determination.
Hannah Groom, a 21-year-old college student from Cumberland, Maine, learned the hard way.
While grateful for rescuers' help, Groom said the $3,360 bill sent to her and a friend was steep for one night on New Hampshire's Baldface Mountain in May. The two had planned a day hike, but took a wrong trail. She blames confusing trail markers.
"I do not believe that charging two young adults such a high fee for a mistake caused by poor trail markers is warranted," she wrote The AP in an e-mail.
Acerno said they were billed because they didn't tell anyone where they planned to hike and didn't have proper equipment, especially a flashlight.
Seasoned winter hiker John Winship, 46, of Boxford, Mass., paid the state $4,000 instead of his $1,479 bill after spending four days on Mount Washington last March when he missed his trail by 50 feet in a snowstorm. The third night out, he was getting frostbite.
"I was so grateful I got out of it. I have 10 fingers and 10 toes," he said of the experience.
Allen Clark, whose volunteer Pemigewasset Rescue Team participated in the Mason search, believes the punishment should be fixed dollar fines, not bills for state workers' time.
"This is an essential service the state should adequately fund," he said.
Woodward, of Colorado, said New Hampshire's image has been badly tarnished.
"If people are going to come to New Hampshire and go take hikes and make a mistake and get billed, they aren't going to come to New Hampshire," he said.

[speedphreak]

Unfortunately, this is an increasingly growing trend among municipalities as operating budgets get squeezed tighter and tighter. On the surface, it does seem to have merit; let's charge the stupid people for having to pull their ass out of the fire, why should the taxpayer foot the bill for someones gross negligence?

Where do we draw the line though?

Isn't that why we have all these specially trained people, all this equipment and resources? We have decided that we want to spend tax dollars to have a nice new rescue helicopter and trained staff on standby just for this reason, so why charge when you actually have to use it? All it's going to take is for one person in New Hampshire to die in the wilderness and leave a note in their trail journal explaining that they didn't call for rescue because they couldn't afford it...

What about if we have everybody that uses local/state/federal resources sign a waiver stating not to utilize general funds for rescue if needed and then outsource rescue operations over to a for-profit company? We can save a ton of taxpayer $$$ by not having to purchase and upkeep millions of dollars worth of specialized rescue equipment and cut the agencies payrolls by not having to have all these specially trained rescue staff hanging around waiting for the Bat Phone to ring.

[lifewithoutanet]

You guys need to read "Jennifer Government" by Max Barry. I honestly see it coming to this:

Synopsis:
Welcome to paradise! The world is run by American corporations (except for a few deluded holdouts like the French); taxes are illegal; employees take the last names of the companies they work for; the Police and the NRA are publicly-traded security firms; and the U.S. government only investigates crimes it can bill for.

Ambulance services and medical care has largely been privatized already. Why not police and fire, too?
-C.

[BASE1190]

The problem is two-fold. First, the people are forced to pay for search-and-rescue through taxation. Second, the government holds a coercive monopoly on the service of search-and-rescue. People should have the choice whether or not they want to individually fund an insurance for search-and-rescue services that will cover them in the event of a search-and-rescue. If you opt out of the insurance, and require the assistance of search-and-rescue, then you should be held accountable for the costs of the search-and-rescue. Without competition there is an incentive to overcharge people by over-responding. A call to 911 usually results in way more paramedics, police, and firemen then necessary to respond to the incident. Also, without competition there is little recourse in the event you are dissatisfied with the service you are provided.

[speedphreak]

Here is an incident that just happened locally:

"John Villeneuve said kids playing with fireworks near his North Williams Street home in Bellevue caught a bush on fire in his front yard. Though a neighbor called 911, Villeneuve said he had the fire out before firefighters arrived and called to cancel the run.

Nonetheless, two plainclothed firefighters from the township's volunteer department arrived in their personal vehicles to check on the fire, Villeneuve said and Bellevue Township Supervisor Bernard Otto confirmed. Villeneuve said the men were there fewer than 10 minutes.

Weeks later, Villeneuve received a bill for $375 -- a charge that included a fire truck run and one hour's pay for 13 firefighters who were on duty at the station at the time, despite the fact only two had responded to the house.

After months of phone tag and haggling, Villeneuve got the township to admit a paperwork mix-up put the fire truck charge on the bill, and that was removed. But the $195 for the 13 firefighters remains. Because the bill remains unpaid, the township said the bill will go to a debt collection agency.

"It's a little bizarre, I've got to say," Villeneuve said. "I wouldn't ask to be paid if I wasn't working."

He said he's willing to pay for the two men who responded, but not the 11 others."

Government has decided that it is it's role to fund responses for emergency situations to the general public; why then turn around and charge them for that response?

[lifewithoutanet]

Government has decided that it is it's role to fund responses for emergency situations to the general public; why then turn around and charge them for that response?

Because everything else is misappropriated to bullshit 'needs' which really only serve to impress select constituents and get those in office re-elected. Pork, it's not just the other white meat.

-C.

[base428]

Some towns in West Virginia charge hourly fees to all parties involved in vehicle collisions. We've had two car accidents in 15 years and both times a bill for $50-75 was mailed to us. Unpaid bills were sent to collection. Sad.

[stitch]

I thought almost always rescue services had to be paid for by those being rescued. I had to pay to be hauled out when I broke my leg. AFAIK the rescue costs incurred to recover Leroy's body were covered by the U.S. Army. One of the benefits of being active duty military.

[BASE1190]

wtf Stitch, I never saw a dime!

[BASE1190]

So we get taxed for these services whether or not we use them, and then we have to pay for it a second time if we do. Yep, sounds like government.

[stitch]

wtf Stitch, I never saw a dime!

Don't get me caught up in you're illegal drug habits.

[nicknitro71]

There shall be a government and there shall be revenue for it, read up a manuscript call the constitution instead of idiotic propaganda. Saying that taxes are illegal is a sign of immature ignorance.

What there shall not be is a government the size of Michigan as we're having now and we can all agree with that.

Privatization is a wise thing because in the end you always want anything to go down to a single head TAKING RESPONSIBILITIES for his/her own company: Private companies not public corporations (fuck the latter). However, there must be an agency (read government) ensuring FAIRNESS otherwise who's going to stop airborne ambulance services to charge and collect unrealistic bills? I got charged 40,000 for a 5-minute chopper ride and my insurance did not pick it up, I did not pay and now I got a messed up credit record, who gives a fuck anyway! Said that, a government shall not be involved directly with any business. Government shall run no business, otherwise we are building utilitarian regimes like communisms and Nazism, and we've had enough of both. Fuck all ideologies and religions by the way; don't put any beliefs outside yourself or you'll end up killing for ideals not real threats: "My god's got a bigger cock than your god and I'll kill you for it so I can go and fuck 40 virgins when I'm dead, you infidel motherfucker!" There ain't no god, let it go and if there's one, I can assure you it ain't the way you think it. Take care the things that are partially under your control.

A government shall provide fair and free use of everybody's land, basic health-care, a WELL trained militia, basic education (if you are unable/unwilling/too-fucking-lazy to teach your own kids), and above all a set of basic rules to ensure INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM and FAIRNESS. I am an individualist/anarchist/rebel by nature, and even I understand that's just an utopia.

We also must understand that money does not exist, you do not make money! Money is a commodity, what you make is trade items that MUST be priced FAIRLY according to supplies/demands and quality. Outsourcing, profit maximization, unrealistic wages for corporate officials, and corruption got not just America but the whole world in the hole.

America needs to re-source manufacturing industry and concentrate on QUALITY vs. cheep quantity. No country was ever shown to survive solely with services and truism.

Bitch all you want, bitch until kingdom-come, in the end, we did this to ourselves. You voted twice for an aggressive/arrogant government and you keep voting for administrations that want a large and larger government. Now pay the price motherfuckers!

[BASE1190]

Nick your post is full of contradictions! You talk about individual freedom and about government control at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive events. You say that money is a commodity, I wish it was. Money today is nothing but pieces of paper and digital BS, promoted by special interests at the expense of everybody else and forced upon us by government. The Constitution is bullshit! The constitution was created by elite white men who did not consider blacks, indians, slaves, women, poor white men, Irish, and certainly not Italians such as yourself to be included in the "all men are created equal". In fact these people were many times not even considered to be people at all by the government. The History of the United States and her government has nothing to do with freedom, liberty, or justice. That has all been propaganda bullshit. The history of the United States government is rife with slavery, massacres, violence, injustice, lies, deceit, attrocities, imperialism, war, and theft. Fuck the patriots!

[nicknitro71]

My young jedei, do not let your emotions get in the way with the truth. Emotions tend to promote actions and reactions that otherwise would have been moderate or fair. So instead of a vivid conversation, one ends up killing another human just because of a difference in opinion.

Writing is the same, do not let the emotions get in the way with the logical process, unless you are trying to embellish the story a little.

With your writing, you are just exploring one of the extremes which by the way IT MUST be done with introspection. You must also play the Devil's advocate with yourself in order to see if the opposite view has some truths. Most of the times, when you come back from an exploration (in different directions), your view of the world is actually a little more fair. Think about a real base jump, it takes you in all different directions but at the end, if you come ahead your view of the world it actually aint't that bad!

Now back to the topic. My freedom has a LIMIT. My freedom is limited by your own freedom and the freedom of others. I won't kill you just because of a difference in opinion. With your extreme view, it's OK for someone to shoot someone else in the back of the skull because he gave anal sex to your girlfriend (or boyfriend, whatever the case might be [cross-dressers, transvestites, and transsexuals too]).

I personally would like a place that sounds something like this:

"Do as you wish to pursuit happiness and wisdom. Don't hurt others while in your pursuit. Shit is going to happen no matter what! Do not attack first, EVER (real physical attack). If attacked upon, you will still have the choice, as supported by the logical axiom of choice. When attacked upon, you can defend yourself or you can counter-attack. A defensive move will do nothing or just hurt the enemy. Damage is always embedded in a counter-attack. If they hurt you, counter-attack braking their bones. If they break your bones, counter-attack killing them."

Money shall be a means for people to equalize trade items. If for instance, I build ships and you make toothpicks, and you want one of my ships, what the fuck am I going to do with one gazzilion of toothfuckingpicks? Would not be nice if I could just buy a few boxes per year and you go ahead and buy one of my ships? How are we going to do that without money, genius boy! So we say a toothpick is worth .01 dollar and my ship a few millions. That's money, the fucking commodity. Hence bitches, you don't make money, if you do you're dumb and you're causing INFLATION. Go, go make money cowboy, make mummy happy so she can get Prozac and you can give prescription amphetamines to your teenager kids! What a picture perfect! Oh, don't forget to sue everybody for money too! Do that man! It's fun and makes mummy happy! Do that until the day you catch a motherfucker like me fucking your mom in the ass! Sweet!

Oh and while we are on the subjects, when shit happens who are we going to send to clean the fuck up! Not you my young jedi yet! I want the army of fucking darkness to clean up the masses and to counter-attack. When a fucking earthquake comes to wipe out Kalifornia who are we going to send to help? You and you idiotic anarchism? Jesus Christ! I want the army of darkness trained in hell by the devil himself to do what absolutely positively has to be done. And who's going to pay for all that? I don't mind chipping in for what we all need. It's got to be done fairly tho and if the humans can't fucking do it, we let the computers do it for us so we can all jump a bit more.

Sayonora cabrones!

So yes, I want a fucking place that enables all that!

[stitch]

Would it be possible to add a clause that the people with doctorates must spell check their written communications ? It is really embarassing and will eventually lead to the fall of civilization.