height evaluation

[guest]

I'm currently looking at a cliff that looks pretty jumpable but since I don't have lots of experience in opening new sites I would like to get some advice here.
exit to landing is about 300m
exit overhanging and pretty easy
rockdrop to impact takes 5sec.(its said to be 120m but I heard 200m also)so there's a talus about 100 to 180 high.
landing area is great
horizontal distance from exit to landing area is about 300m
there are some outs with one being really nasty
hope this is enough for some advice from the pros.
mk

[guest]

From my calculations you should make the landing with no problems! Where all your pads in case you need to shoot for an out.

[guest]

full battle gear is mandatory
thanks for verifying my thoughts
mk

[guest]

When "full battle gear" and similar padding is refered to, what do people mean by this exactly? What type of Padding do cliff jumpers use and where can it be bought?

thanks.

[crwper]

Everyone seems to use different padding, and of course it can very even for one person based on the object (some objects you might want to armour up, some you don't really need it, or it might hinder your movement). Things I've seen used:

- Rollerblading elbow/knee pads
- Protec helmet
- Full-face skydiving helmet
- Full-face mountain biking helmet
- Full-face motorcycle helmet (really too heavy for this stuff, and resulted in some neck/back strain.
- Motocross body armour (torso, shoulders, and something on the back for the spine)
- Motocross knee/shin pads
- Cooperalls
- Ankle/knee braces

You name it. It's all borrowed from other sports, and can be bought wherever equipment for those sports is bought.

Michael

[BASE_689]

What I use for nearly 100% of my jumps (=whenever and wherever possible) is:
>- Full-face skydiving helmet (=FD) with lense removed, with small LED white torch fixed on the "forehead" (you know, it helps in night jump...)
>- Motocross body armour: torso, shoulders, elbows and forearms (I have the "shell" on the back for the spine removed, not yet used, it makes you a little bulky... ...but in case, I can assemble it back to its place...)
>- Motocross knee and shin pads
>- Ankle braces (only when I have aggressively low urban jumps with subsequent tar landing...)

When I am "full dressed" like that, I feel that I did my best about protection, and so I jump more relaxed. Honestly, it took me a while to get comfortable with all that stuff on, but now I am happy I did it.

Just my 0.02

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D

[d-dog]

Five second rock drop is, at most, 366 feet. If the rock is smaller than, say, sotfball-sized and not very dense (sandstone or pumice), then it could be less. This is not a very tall cliff. If you take more than 2.5 you are going deep - if you take four, you'll likely hit talus at line stretch. Less than 2.5 is basically a go-and-throw, and personally I think the risk of off-heading generally goes up in these types of jumps.

Clearly, this is a slider down jump in case you were wondering.

If you cannot see all the way from exit to impact while standing at the exit point, I strongly recommend that you rappel over the edge a bit so that you can (just like I always do, right TH?). This is to identify any noses or ledges that might be just one side or another of the fall line. Such features could cause you to launch at a different angle, take a different delay (so that you don't open right next to a ledge and risk object strike from an off-heading), or even scratch the jump. Even an overhanging face can have nasty stuff sticking out of it.

If there are climbers on the rock, don't be rock-dropping on their heads. At the least, ALWAYS yell "rock!" before tossing just in case someone is down there. Right DW?

Beware the winds, of course - small winds can cause rotors on cliffs that can initiate off-headings and other bad things on opening. Check winds at landing area - they can be different from those at exit, which can be different from those at deployment altitude.

Are your brake settings properly set? Do you open in deep brakes in a perfect stall, or damned close? If not, don't do this cliff until you have your brakes dialed-in. Really, seriously. I've had two bad off-headings on Es that were riser corrected effectively but only because I had my brakes dialed-in already. Had I been jumping "factory" brakes, I'd have had bad cliff strikes both times. As it was, I kicked off on one and had to suck in my legs to miss on another.

Have you practised 180 corrections by doing floaters off of bridges? Both toggle and riser corrections? Do you know when to go for toggles, and when to go for risers? Are you jumping Big Grab toggles or equivalent? If not, I'd invest the $25 before you do this - even if you plan to riser correct for most off-headings. Getting one toggle off and missing the other can result in spooky "off-heading" like behavior the first time it happens.

If you are jumping an unvented canopy, do you understand the performance degradation you'll get in the event of a radical riser correction without vents? Are you jumping a vented pilot chute? If not, BUY ONE before you do this jump - they work. I'd guess a 46 would be a good size vented for this jump. CR makes them and probably has one in stock with your name all over it.

Are you mentally calm and able to embrace the possiblity of serious injury from the minute your feet leave the exit point? You should be - that way you can enjoy the experience, if you have already come to terms with the risk of injury. In my experience, you'll also respond quicker and better to problems if you are mentally calm and alert rather than freaked-out and sketchin'.

New cliffs are an amazing experience, but also can be pretty intimidating once you are geared up and ready to jump. Do your prep beforehand, and you'll be solid and confident on exit (especially the gear stuff, nothing like Gear Fear(tm) on a new E). Be ready for anything and you'll be surprised at nothing. One of the world's most experienced jumpers was nearly killed last year on a very similar E from a 180 offheading - with full battle armor. They aren't to be taken lightly at that height - when things go wrong, they go wrong pretty fast and aren't very forgiving.

Sounds like the glide to landing is no problem under canopy unless you take 4 or so, in which case you got other problems anyway ;-)

Be safe out there and let us know how it goes!

Peace,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

[imported_Tom Aiello]

Doug!

>Clearly, this is a slider up jump in case you
>were wondering.

Jokes like this will kill someone who doesn't know better!

MK:

This is a slider down/off jump--no question in my mind!

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[d-dog]

Thank you for the catch, Tom. Actually it was a typo due to not enough caffeine yet this morning.

THIS JUMP IS SLIDER DOWN!

I've corrected the typo in the original post, as well.

Peace,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com

[imported_Tom Aiello]

If you've never opened an object before, my advice would be to find someone who has, and take them out there to scope it with you. This isn't always possible (depending on where you live), but it sure can help.

Failing that, make sure you know every aspect of the object (altitude, outs, landings, obstacles, bust, etc). Spend a day at the cliff scoping it out. Bring climbing gear, a rangefinder, and radios. Rappel the jump line. Talk to your friends about it. Watch what the wind does all day. Then, make a plan for the first jump.

Now, go home and think about it for a week. Does it still sound like a good idea? Ok, grab your rig and head out there.

Now you're at the exit. Does the plan still seem solid?

Here are a few things I'd include in my planning:

1) What's the exact altitude?
2) What deployment method will you use the first time (D-bag, static line, PCA, hand held, stowed, McConkey)? I'd recommend a D-bag, but a static line should be ok. [I'll bet you go hand held, though--that's just a good demonstration of how soft I really am, I suppose.]
3) Slider up or down? This is definitely a slider down/off kind of jump.
4) What are the bust considerations?
5) When is the wind calmest (probably dawn)? Make the first jump then.
6) Who will ground crew? Are they solid in an emergency? It's all well and good to bring out your girl and impress her, but if she'll panic when you pound in and break your leg, make sure you bring your friend who's an SAR tech, too. Be absolutely certain that your ground crew knows, understands, and will execute your plan and contingencies for bust, injury, etc.
7) Where will emergency medical aid come from? How long do you have to make it on your own until help comes?
8) Does your cell phone work? Can you call an ambulance in an emergency?
9) Where is the landing? What are the outs?

I'm sure I've missed a couple dozen things. Anyone want to chime in and point them out?

>exit to landing is about 300m

The "about" makes me nervous. I'd be very cautious until you know what the elevation and distance involved really are.

>exit overhanging and pretty easy

Sounds good so far. Have you rappelled over the edge to check that it stays that way after exit? I'd certainly do that.

>rockdrop to impact takes 5sec.(its said to be 120m but I heard 200m also)

My major piece of advice:

BUY A LASER RANGEFINDER.

There is way too much variation here. Your rock could be a whole variety of sizes and densities. Your cliff has a possible height variation of 80m based on hearsay. This is not a good situation. You need to KNOW how high the thing is. For certain.

I'd recommend getting your hands on a laser, then rapelling just over the edge, so you have a clear shot straight down to impact. Lots of people get innacurate measurements from their lasers because they stand a bit back from the edge and shoot down at an angle, adding 5-25% to their height estimate (depending on talus, shape of wall, etc).

You can determine impact point by dropping a rock, or, rope depending and my personal favorite, just by rapelling straight down. That way, you get to personally inspect the entire free fall line (to look for potential obstacles, snag points, or rotor generators), and you get the added benefit of seeing the impact zone first hand, before you end up PLFing into it with both hands on the rear risers.

Ok, so let's say that you have established that your cliff is, in fact 360 feet high.

That's pretty low for a 180. I'd recommend static lining (or better yet direct bagging) the first jump. Then, you can do another one as a go and throw, then take some hand held delay, then go stowed (if you are so inclined). There's no need to skip straight to jump number five on the object. It's yours, and you may as well have some fun with it. Start slow, get comfortable with the object, including offheadings, landings and outs, and you'll be a lot better prepared on jump number 17, when you have a bona fide 180 and have to take that nasty out. Plus, if you do end up in the hospital, you'll be better able to bear the grinning friends who show up with great video of their five jumps from your cliff, knowing that you already have ten (rather than having gotten hurt on the first one).

>so there's a talus about 100 to 180 high.

Again, I'd prefer to know exactly how high it is. As long as you can outglide it under canopy, it shouldn't be too bad. I'd definitely recommend walking around the talus a bit, and deciding how you would land on it if you had to (my personal favorite is across the slope, rather than up or down).

>landing area is great

Just make sure you make it to the great landing area. The best way to know what your canopy, with you under it, will do, is to do it several times. That means a d-bag or static line for the first jump, and only a gradual approach to the deeper delays. This will allow you to back off when you start to have trouble making the landing, rather than only finding out that you don't have enough glide when you are forced to take that nasty out.

>horizontal distance from exit to landing area is about 300m

That seems like a long way to me. Again, I'd be concerned about making the landing with a deep delay and/or off heading. Yet another reason to have a nice high opening on the first jump, and get the feel of what's really going on with the glide before committing to a deeper delay.

>there are some outs with one being really nasty

How nasty? If it's too nasty for YOU to really land there, then stop thinking of it as an out, right now. If you really would make a landing there, prepare yourself for that eventuality. Don't be waffling on whether to take that out at a critical moment, then ending up with no landing, or a low turn into the ground, because you were indecisive.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[crwper]

Tom --

Just curious... If MK has established that the cliff is 360 feet to the talus, for sure, then why do you recommend a static line (or d-bag, or PCA) first? I've never had a serious off-heading with a static line, so I generally count them as very reliable... However, on a 360-foot object I would trade a bit of vertical distance for horizontal distance from the object... Are you mainly concerned that poor body position on an over-amped go-and-throw is more likely to cause an off-heading opening than a calm static line?

I'd like to hear your reasoning, just because it surprises me to hear your recommendation. Thanks, Tom!

Michael

[imported_Tom Aiello]

I'd choose the highest opening possible because:

1) I don't know how far it is to the landing area. Our best guess at this point puts the landing area at 45 degrees (1 to 1) from the exit point.
2) The outs don't sound nearly as good as the primary landing, so I'd really prefer to make the landing area.
3) I don't know what MK's experience level is, but judging by his self description, I'd be worried that he has never had to land on talus, or in a really hairy place. So I'd really, really prefer that he make the landing.
4) Most of the low time jumpers I have known have had trouble judging their delays. Heck, most of the jumpers have--I think this is an area where we are seriously remiss. Taking two seconds from 360' with a relatively remote landing area and a severe off heading sounds to me like a certain recipe for an out landing. A D-bag/S-L/PCA eliminates this possibility.
5) As you have pointed out, most beginners have better heading on assisted deployments because (quoting Dennis McGlynn), the parachute opens before "your bad body position can screw it up."

My biggest worry, which we avoid by establishing that the cliff is actually 360', is that MK will just haul off and jump it without lasering it. If it turns out to be 200', a free fall could leave him a crater--any kind of assisted deployment will avoid this possibility.

Note that I strongly prefer the D-bag to the static line, and moderately prefer it to the PCA, in this situation.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[imported_Tom Aiello]

>- Full-face skydiving helmet (=FD) with lense removed

Why do you remove the lens?

I usually leave mine in place, after a nasty close call with a branch in the cheek (through the open face plate) a while back.


--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[crwper]

Would you choose the d-bag over a skillful PCA in this situation? I've been working on my PCA technique, and it seems to me that except the extra length of the bridle, a practiced PCA should be equivalent to a d-bag. What do you think?

Michael

[imported_Tom Aiello]

I agree that a skillful PCA is funtionally equivalent to a direct bag.

However:

1) MK is unlikely to have a skillful PCAer, as he is unable to even find an experienced jumper in his area to scope the object with.

2) Even very experienced jumpers may have poor PCA technique. A good PCA is much harder to find than a good jumper. I realized this a year and a half ago when I dropped a friends PC on a reasonably challenging 220' cliff (still sorry about that!). At the time I had around 290 jumps. The level of skill required to hold a d-bag, by comparison, is negligible.

3) Even a skillful PCAer is more likely to make a mistake that effects deployment than even a moderately well briefed bag holder. All the bag holder has to do is hold the bag. The PCAer has to release the PC at exactly the right moment to prevent center cell strip.

I guess that I'd go with a PCA if I was confident in the skills of the PC holder. However, unless you live in Australia or Canada (the new low-altitude capital of the BASE world, I understand) you are unlikely to have a crew full of experienced PCAers to help you off this thing.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com