Toggles or rear risers????

[guest]

I've just had an off heading which resulted in a painful cliff strike. I want to discuss this question!

Option 1) Some say it's faster to go for the risers. But if you're facing the wall, (with brakes stowed deep: you're already close to a stall), and you pull on a riser like your life depends on it, you sink faster and you turn slow.

Option 2) If you go for toggles the canopy will be more responsive to input. You have that second between "canopy out" and "canopy inflated" where you are sinking but not yet flying, when risers or brakes will be ineffective anyway. You have that second to go for the brakes if you're fast.

I went for option 2. But I ran out of time/altitude before I could avoid the wall. Maybe I would have been worse off with option 1. I'm not sure! Opinions from the gurus of BASE please!

[guest]

Hello S_S

Sorry to hear of your incident.

Although situations vary, the basics still call for rear riser corrections first.

In any case if you go for the toggles (and don't fumble one, or both) and still hit the wall it's going to be at a higher speed (and harder) with the brakes released.

If you then dribble down the face of the wall I'd say you'd be better off with the brakes still stowed. (From a re-inflation standpoint).

As for stalling the canopy, well, in order to turn away using the risers, you don't really have to pull down, "like your life depends on it." Because you are deflecting the entire trailing edge on that side so a little riser equals a lot of toggle. (If the canopy stalls with a small amount of rear riser imput the brakes are probably set a bit too deep).

Also, turning away using the risers will produce a flatter turn where a toggle turn may swing you out into the wall.

Lastly, if going for the toggles first becomes a habit and one day you get a major line twist(s) releasing the brakes first may make the situation worse.

Hope you recover fast and fully.

Nick
Basic Research
http://basicresearch.com

[Yuri]

Yo !

>"Although situations vary, the basics still call for rear riser corrections first."

With all due respect, i believe this is an outdated and incorrect information. Most situations involving modern BASE canopies call for a quick toggle action, with some rare exceptions.

>"In any case if you go for the toggles (and don't fumble one, or both) and still hit the wall it's going to be at a higher speed (and harder) with the brakes released."

This makes very little sense. Most people don't release the brakes and let them go ;-) They usually pull one or both toggles down quite a bit, resulting in a flat turn. If a pilot has any common sense and still hits the wall, it will be near or at the stall point - about as slow as possible in this situation.

>"Also, turning away using the risers will produce a flatter turn where a toggle turn may swing you out into the wall."

Again, this is plain wrong. Nick, are you still jumping ???

Generally, a flat toggle turn will be quicker and consume less altitude than a rear riser turn.

There is usually some nasty stuff coming out right below you, and it is very important not only to turn quickly, but also to use minimal altitude in a turn. Toggle turns accomplish both tasks better.

I firmly believe that for a current jumper, toggle turns are a much better option in 99% situations. The only scenario where risers may be better is if you are VERY CLOSE to the vertical wall and VERY FAR from anything below - meaning that you don't mind stalling a canopy quickly, and also meaning WHY IN THE HELL didn't you take it lower, further away from the object ???

To be honest, there is always one bulletproof reason to use risers: "you can miss a toggle". Well, it's your call on risk management: missing a toggle vs. not turning quick/flat enough with a riser. I have been very happy with my choices so far (toggles mostly, risers once or twice).

bsbd!

Yuri.

http://base416.com

[guest]

Did the canopy have secondary inlets (bottom skin valves or vents)?

[guest]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-01 AT 04:53 PM (PST)[/font][p]Did you pop the brakes to full drive (i.e. release the toggles and let them up)? Or did you keep them most of the way down and turn via negative input?

[guest]

I'd love to see more people contribute to this thread. I was always taught the traditional "rear riser" approach.

However, my experience with 180's (both close calls and strikes) seems to indicate to me that the toggles are a better response. I think it's important not to dump the slack out when you pop the toggle, though, as that could surge you into the object.

Has anyone done any actual testing (maybe full floaters off a bridge with a camera looking down)?

Anybody else want to contribute?

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[guest]

Toggles give a faster response BUT ONLY IF YOU GET HOLD OF THEM!!!!!!! It takes longer to get your fingers through your toggles than it does to grab your rear risers. Solution??? Perhaps a CRW like toggle system.

If you set your canopy up right (brake settings etc), you will get sufficient input and response from your rear risers.

Risers can be a problem on VERY LOW objects as you will lose height that you probably don't have whilst turning away.

p.s WHen teaching students, my personal opinion is that you should teach risers. Why??? Because student jumpers are usually under a great deal of pressure anyway and there is a much greater chance that they will miss their toggles (jus twatch some videos of first time jumpers). If they are jumping underhung objects or they track poorly, they will be very close to the wall and not have enought time to fumble and recover.

If you are a guru and you can guarantee to get you toggles, go for it.

p.s IF you are jumping slider up and you bust your toggles prior to the slider coming down, you are affectively changing yoour break setting!!!

[guest]

No, I was jumping an unvented Fox. My opening was about 100 degrees left and I'm sure I had the brakes unstowed with the right toggle buried before the canopy was pressurized. I wasn't turning when I hit. Maybe a vented canopy would have reacted sooner. Guess what I want for Christmas!!

[guest]

It all happened very fast, but I know for sure I had the right toggle as far as my arm is long, and the left was probably about half brakes, so yes, a negative input turn.

S_S

[squirrel]

I was jumping an 1,100' tower, so I was packed slider up. at 500', it became apparent that we had to get off the tower IMMEDIATLY. so, slider up, fanny pack still to the rear (to make it easier to climb, no time to turn it around) I exited at 500' and took about a 2 second delay. So wouldn't you know it, perfect 180. Before the slider was halfway down, I was facing the tower.

In hindsight, I didn't 'tell' my arm to reach up and pull the risers. It just happenned. My eyes never left the tower, I just reached up and grabbed rear riser and waited to see if i was going to clear the tower.

I realize that this was a slider up jump and I shouldn't have gone for the toggles anyway, but the jump became *very* stressful even before exit, and had it been a slider down jump I would have reacted in the same manner.

If you are teaching students, (I have around 60 BASE jumps) in my opinion, the rule should be risers. Only after someone gets comfortable with dealing with 180's should they then transition to going for the toggles.

[guest]

I agree with the riser for students approach and then experienced jumpers can make up their own mind (I use toggles generally) but why would first time students be jumping underhung objects?

My toggles from Morpheus Technologies have stiffeners in them and they are so easy to grab that there should be very little chance of losing them.

Craig

[guest]

This is a contraversial one.
Assuming slider down:
If you have sufficient height & clearance from the object, use your risers as you will have a far crisper response. However, be warned. Modern base canopies are trimmed close to the stallpoint for minimal forward veocity on opening. Therefore they will lose altitude quickly when left in deep brake setting!
If the jump height won't let you use risers, then you will need to correct off heading openings by unstowing the correct brake toggle. Think about this.
On the jump you mentioned, you unstowed the outer toggle. This in effect will cause the canopy at first to surge forward, until you maxed out on the brake. the inner (left) side was still stowed.
Therefore your canopy would have been flying almost straight.
My experience has shown me on a jump like this to unstow the inboard toggle, therefore getting the "strike" side of the canopy to fly asap. A touch of rear riser can also be applied on the outboard side, but don't overdo the riser!
The trick on this is to unstow the correct toggle, as instinctively you will head for the outboard one in an attempt to get it away from the object.
However, there are no hard & fast rules. Read up on Consolidated Riggings article on base canopy control found in CR's library.
Think about it carefully. Look at each jump you due in future, & evaluate it & decide on corrective actions.
Safe jumping!
Karl
552