Now, They're All Piling 0n . . .

[guest]

everyone is guilty for poluting yosemite even you. As a BASE jumper, I'd vote for no cars in the park, period. People can't seem to keep food out of their cars which in turn is a death warrent for the bears. The construction and infrastructure in the park is horrific.
If you want percentages i can't give them because many of the jumps made are secret, but there are more then you'd ever guess without incident. Also not eveything is jumpable, but what is safe to jump will be jumped. It's better then jumpers jumping in the cities wouldn't it be better if we could all enjoy our parks equally?
And to your comment about hiking for thirty years without incident, congradulations, but you can't say it could never happen because it has for peoples first time in the park. Are you or your family any less deserving of a rescue then my family? Lets all enjoy the park the way we choose. Remember it is my choice to jump as it is yours to hike. When you know enough about my sport you may want to jump too. I hope you can if that is your choice. have a nice day!

[guest]

What I was trying to point out is that people on here are trying to be "holier than thou" by saying how jumping doesn't pollute but people who drive motorhomes do. Yeah, you're not polluting for those few seconds you're going in a downward direction, but you drove to the park, too!

You say that what is safe to jumped will be. Even if it's private property and the owner doesn't want you there? Also, as I've pointed out other activities in the parks have restrictions on them, but the attitude expressed by many here is that they don't want any restrictions or regulations in any way. I don't remember seeing a right to jump off things in the Constitution. It's legal to drive a motor vehicle in Yosemite, but just see what happens if you try to drive to Mirror Lake today! A long time ago it was allowed, but now it's not. I don't go hiking where I'm not supposed to! You say that we should all be allowed to enjoy the park equally, but what about that guy Hurwitz who owns Maxxam, which owns The Pacific Lumber Company? What if he decides he wants to get his jollies by dropping a few Sequoias in one of the groves? Does he have a right to do that? How about the Hells Angels, do they have the right to go tear up Stoneman Meadow with their motorcycles?

[guest]

I've been getting a lot of grief from people here for signing my messages "Anonymous", but most of you seem to be using some sort of "handle" that also makes you "Anonymous", or did your parents really name you shawnflyz?

[guest]

In this year's stats will be seeing some different numbers. Let's try and put the numbers in perspective. Millions of hikes, thousands of climbers, 125 deaths last year. A few thousand BASE jumps (I'm being generous here) and two deaths this year. And don't forget, that stat is for NPS property only, how many BASE fatalities were there total, everywhere?

[guest]

My ancestors had these cliffs stolen from them before they were slaughtered . I do not recognize any law that prevents me from communing with my ancestors and launching myself off these cliffs. Catch me if you can.

[guest]

Anonymous thank you for reminding me how many backcountry,redneck,KKK card carying skydiving woffo`s that there is out there in the good ol`e U.S of A.
You know[replace the T with a f] tUCKING nothing about our sport/lifestyle.You don`t even have the balls to leave your real name, What`s that saying you seppo`s have "yellow".
You can e-mail me derect on,
feralshard@netscape.net

Or call me on 00610419637622

And yes @ickhead Feral`s my name


feral

[guest]

Most of us don't base jump so we can break the law, but we do occasionally break the law so we can base jump. I personally prefer to pursue legal jumps when possible, as the risk of being arrested (bust factor) makes many objects prohibitive to me. I generally try to stay away from privately owned objects because of this. I do not advocate vandalism of any kind, and this is generally not a desirable behavior within the base community, as it advertises our presence at an object. We wish to jump good sites over and over again, therefore we desire our presence to go undetected. Because of this, we must take additional risk, and jump in less than ideal conditions, such as darkness, rain, etc. Completely legal base jumps in the US are few and far between. A couple of bridges, a few low cliffs. Very dangerous.

This is not true in other countries, such as Norway and Italy. Many of us go to great expense to visit these areas.

Ah, to be able to stand at the edge of El Capitan, on a beautiful California day. With a group of my closest friends beside me, a base rig on my back, and a permit in my pocket that says I have the right to enjoy our national parks the way I see fit. Just like every other hiking, camping, mountain biking, rock climbing, slack roping, hang gliding, kayaking, winnibego driving motherf@#%er out there that day.

It's our park too!

BTW, shawnflyz@cs.com. Use it, don't abuse it.

PS
1) El Capitan, due to the nature of its shape and size, is probably the safest cliff jump in the world.
2) No stats, but I doubt our rescue rate is any higher than other, more conventional, high risk activities. Probably lower, we tend to self rescue.
3) If I only had one tandem to my credit, I would fear base 44 as well.

Blue Skies, Black Death

[Keith]

>I don't remember
>seeing a right to jump off
>things in the Constitution.

It's not in the Constitution, it's in the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

Read it sometime.

[guest]

Just because we are striving to jump doesn't mean where "holier than thou". The polution problem I can't solve. that extra $15 charge should though.
Who said jump private property let's stick to your argument about rights inside the park. It's the use with the least amount of impact period.
We can set restrictions on ourselves with the park service's help. this is the US that's just how it is. We'd just like to leave a cliff with the technology we have which you need to learn more about.
Hurwitz, Hells Angles, etc. are not who we are. Our group just wants to go to the park, hike up a mountain, fly fly fly off of it, then open a parachute, land and leave. period. Your equal use with what you describe should not be compared with our group. To me we both want to enjoy the park in the same way- with the least impact. Period!

[guest]

Why do you think there wasn't a few thousand jumps made this year is that so hard to beleave. At Bridge day alone there was over 800 jumps made in just the 6 hours not to mention all those who made it a road trip endeavor. My group of 4 jumpers made in three weeks 60 jumps. Bridge day is held in October near the end of the year. How many other groups made jumps before and after Bridge Day? How many jumps where made at the Tumbstone? I'm guessing with about forty competitors with 10 rounds of competition adds up to 400 jumps at least- go figure, and thats just during the competition. How many fun jumps where made? Before you grab a number from the air about our sport like so many do even in our own media, find out a bit about what jumpers are doing to make themselves safe in their sport- THERE JUMPING!
The two deaths the NPS has this year is two too many. but it wasn't due to failure of equipment. There is a reason for Jan's parachute not opening, and the drowning of Frank we'll his jump was over- period. Usually, mistakes made in this sport are pilot error, the gear works and many people use it to the best of their ability that you'll never hear about. Let's be realistic, jumping may never have a year with no deaths, but we need to make that choice. It's our choice for living.

[guest]

i'm only responding to you anonymous because there are many out there who think like you do, and that is a dangerous thing for our society. it really is a tolerance issue. tolerance for others and their choices and the way they want to live their lives.

the points you make about laws are legitimate. yes we do need certain laws to make sure that the rights of others are not infringed upon, the environment is looked after, etc.. that is why the issue of not allowing us to jump off a cliff that we have all paid for throughout our lives doesn't make sense. who are we hurting? ourselves? when the jumpers that jumped on oct. 22 were arrested, what did they do exactly.....who was it that they hurt. what was it that they damaged? hmmm. i can't think of anything either.

as for the rescue argument, as i've said before, that's what our public servants get paid for. part of the job that they chose includes rescues."if you can't take the heat,get out of the kitchen." as for the cost,i wonder, did you do any bitching when our tax dollars were forked out to bury an ex-president's(who died 36 years ago)son at sea using a navy ship. how much of your tax money do you think that little ceremony cost.compared to most government financial misappropriation, i think we can live with rescues of all kinds ( pun intended). including yours if you ever need it.

the main issue here is discrimination, plain and simple. it's not a hard concept to grasp. we are not saying we want to do anything illegal in the parks. the majority of us would obey permits if given the opportunity.those that don't, YOU can throw the book at them.you may be surprised to know that most of us have a greater reverance for the wilderness than most hikers and campers, maybe even you. did you know that the nps doesn't even issue the permits for hang gliding. the u.s. hang gliding association does.a private organization. imagine that. see, the problem is, in order to be non-discriminatory, that would mean that NO ONE gets to use the park for their form of recreation. even you. think about it, no more hiking. no more camping. bummer.

part of the problem with humanity is that we rarely try to see things from others perspectives.it's all about me. why don't you try to open your mind and heart and ask yourself, "who are they really hurting if they jump off that cliff". i won't knock you for what you do in your life, that I don't understand. and you don't knock me for what i do in MY life that you don't understand, providing we aren't hurting anyone else in the process. how's that?

i've wasted far too much time at this computer, i've got to get out and live big. maybe you should too. you won't believe how much fun you can have out there when you're not worried about what everyone else is doing.

[guest]

Dumb argument. The Declaration of Independance is simply that ... a rhetorically embrodiered statement made for the historical purpose of initiating war. Its not a constitution or source for the articulation of rights in this country. I don't think it helps the cause of BASE jumping to rely on completely fallacious arguments. All it does is destroy credibility by putting BASE jumpers in the same wacko camp as the militia types and other idiots who don't understand how our democracy works.

Likewise, dumb moves like the recent jump resulting in a rescue do nothing but set back BASE. The argument that BASE jumping is no more dangerous than big wall climbing and should likewise be allowed in National Parks is persuasive if limited to its facts: comparative safety, environmental impact, rescue costs, etc. But the argument that BASE jumpers have some sort of "right" to jump off anything is not persuasive. Its illegal to rock climb a skyscraper because its private property and the owner has a right to restrict access and use. Likewise for BASE jumping. How can BASE jumpers expect anyone to respect the "right" to jump if BASE jumpers don't respect the rights of private property owners. That jump was a bad move.

So do everyone a favor. Don't rant like wackos, don't insult everyone who disagrees, don't align with white supremacists, instead make the reasonable and persuasive arguments that compare BASE jumping to climbing, etc.

[guest]

Counselor, this is not a court of law.

It's a place to air out opinions and ideas however outrageous, even yours.

You said: "[The Constitution is] a rhetorically embrodiered statement made for the historical purpose of initiating war."

I hope all the dead Soldiers, Sailors and Marines who's blood made it possible for you to practice your once noble but now sullied craft heard
that . . . and on Veteran’s Day too!

Nick_BR

[guest]

I was referring to the Declaration of Independance not the Constitution. It was a document sent to England to declare that the United States was rebelling from English rule thus starting the war for independance. What I said is the simple truth. So don't get sanctimonious.

[Mike]

I thought I should clarify, because you seem to have been misled (most likely by our wonderful media); we're not asking for the NPS to let us run rampant through the park, jumping whatever and whenever we want. We are contesting a discriminatory practice by which the NPS ABSOLUTELY REFUSES to issue permits. I don't have the time to explain to you how self-regulation works in this sport. I can only tell you to educate yourself, somehow, on Bridge Day perhaps, The IPBC, or the Norway situation. All are fine examples of how we (base jumpers) can be responsible for ourselves.