LRM on a slider-up skydive

[JaapSuter]

Hi,

would there be any problem using the line-release-modification on a slider-up skydive (with a base canopy)?

Worst case scenario I lose both toggles and need to land on rear-risers. I've landed my Sabre 170 on rear-risers many times before (skydiving) and especially wearing my Hanwags, I don't see much problems with it.

It would allow me to get more experience flying and landing a canopy with the LRM installed (the flare and toggle-stall characteristics are different), plus I could see how it flies with only one toggle coming off.

I suppose I should do it on a hop-and-pop? Am I overlooking something? Is the risk of steering-line entanglement (once you let go) substantial enough?

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

[Tom Aiello]

The control lines drive the slider, so you're likely to get a heck of a snivel without the control lines in there.

I've done this multiple times with a BASE canopy in a skydiving rig, and had to pump the risers on occasion to get the slider to descend.

[JaapSuter]

So you're not necessarily argueing against it then? Considering I'll open high anyway, I don't have a problem pumping the risers for a while. If the chances of my slider eventually coming down before I hit 2k are more than 98%, than it's worth the risk to me.

I'll discuss it with my rigger too.

<crazy idea mode>
Perhaps I'll just put some lubricant (teflon?) on the slider grommets to make it come down easier. Mmmm, what wouldn't damage the lines?
</crazy idea mode>

Thanks,

Jaap

[Tom Aiello]

As long as you have a reserve, it ought to be ok. If the slider sticks up, you can just cut it away and go for plan B.

I don't think I'd bother with the slider lubrication. If you want to change the slider deployment characteristics, the thing to do is make a new slider in a different material/size.

[BASE_689]

> would there be any problem using the line-release-modification on a slider-up skydive (with a base canopy)?
After having read Tom's comments, I would say that doing so could generate some problem in having the slider coming down (in one case the routing of brake lines outside slider grommets in a slider up BASE jump caused a fatality).
In the end, there are some negative issues in doing so.
Just as a matter of curiosity, what is the positive issue of jumping from an aircraft with a BASE canopy (inside a skydiving container) with the LM (Line Mod) including the routing of brake lines OUTSIDE the slider grommets?
I was wondering which the benefits are in doing so...

[JaapSuter]

...in one case the routing of brake lines outside slider grommets in a slider up BASE jump caused a fatality

Exactly. In base this is not a good idea for precisely the reasons pointed out; the slider might not come down, or take too long in coming down, and you'll snivel in. The difference in skydiving, as Tom pointed out, is that you are carrying a plan B. Your reserve.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what is the positive issue of jumping from an aircraft with a BASE canopy (inside a skydiving container) with the LRM

You'd get more experience flying an LRM canopy with the steering lines completely gone (e.g. flying and landing on risers). Normally when you play with risers in a skydive, the toggles are still hung up on the slider-grommets, leaving some stability to the tail. I have no experience flying otherwise, but I can imagine that once you let go of the steering lines completely (with the LRM installed), the canopy behaves differently. This I'd like to find out, preferably in the comfort of having some altitude and a reserve .

(Line Mod) including the routing of brake lines OUTSIDE the slider grommets?

Is there more to the LRM than routing the brake lines outside the grommets? Okay, brakes are stowed differently, but what do you mean with 'including'?

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

[BASE_689]

> Is there more to the LRM than routing the brake lines outside the grommets? Okay, brakes are stowed differently, but what do you mean with 'including'?
What I mean by 'including' is the following.
When you jump slider off, obviously there are no slider grommets around, and so the brake lines are routed outside keeper rings on risers, in order to be able to get rid of toggles/brake lines in case of a line over. This is called LM (Line Mod (=Modification)), which LM includes the white loop for being able to set the brake with line routed outside keeper ring.
When you jump slider down, there are slider grommets around, but in this case you route the brake lines OUTSIDE slider grommets as well as outside the keeper rings on risers, in order to be able to get rid of toggles/brake lines in case of a line over.
When you jump slider up and you say: "I jump with LM", that sentence implies automatically that your brake lines are routed outside keeper rings on risers. Saying just so, and this time having a slider (up) around, it was not clear where you routed your brake lines further "outside what" or "within what".
Another possibility to investigate is to route the brake lines WITHIN the slider grommets and outside keeper rings (just "bare LM").
In this case (before releasing brakes) you end up with having a "normal" deploying parachute with slider being pushed down by all line groups AND by brake lines, once you have your slider just above your head, you release the brakes, control that everything is OK and then, calmly, you pass each toggle outside the (rear) slider grommet, getting rid of toggles one at a time.
Just see on the ground how easy is to get each toggle through and out of the slider grommet. Just check the the velcro on risers is OK and brakes are PROPERLY SET (otherwise, a premature release of toggle would cause a very nice mess going up towards the slider grommet when the slider is jolly high.....).
Does this make any sense to you?

[JaapSuter]

> Does this make any sense to you?

Yes! Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated! Sorry for the initial confusion.

Cheers,

Jaap Suter

[Tom Aiello]

Another possibility to investigate is to route the brake lines WITHIN the slider grommets and outside keeper rings (just "bare LM").

I know that 689 knows this, I just wanted to point this out for anyone else reading:

Be aware that if you blow a toggle on opening while rigged in this configuration, there is a significant chance the toggle will entangle the slider and cause a total malfunction.

But, hey, that's what the second canopy is for, right?

[JaapSuter]

Be aware that if you blow a toggle on opening while rigged in this configuration, there is a significant chance the toggle will entangle the slider and cause a total malfunction.

One would use the slider-down method of stowing the breaks then, I take it.

[whatever]

or, you could use some slider-up-line-release-toggles

I know of at least one manufacturer who makes ones that are compatible with CR (and similar) risers and it will only run you $50 a pair.

It will save you some rigging/experimenting and also, you will have them and know how to use them for those slider up jumps!

at this point I would like to say that based purely on 2 jumps I did at the TBPB last year, one slider off where I tossed the toggles and one slider up where I used line release toggles, I found my canopy to fly noticeably differently with the brakelines free when it had the slider on, as opposed to slider off.

looking at how much more my risers spread at the links slider off, I think that can account for a difference in 'trim' that is noticeable in flight

BTW - I preferred how it flew without the slider.

all I want now, is a removable slider sized for a 260 base canopy

[Maxim]

Heya,

a couple of weeks ago i took my mojo out a plane to get a bit of experiance on it. done 4 jumps on it opening at 8,000feet terminal all jumps the brake lines were routed outside the keepers and the slider gromets. i didnt have any problem with the slider coming down, but i was using a large mesh slider and the openings were brisk. Be pretty hard for it not to come down =) just packed the canopy as slow as i could

Good Luck remember you have a reserve. good time to learn a lesson when you got a backup.

[GaryP]

Just 2nding what Tom said - even going so far as to say DON'T route your control lines outside the riser keeper rings and leave them inside the slider grommets.

A blown toggle on opening will release and most probably foul with the slider preventing it from coming down. OK you have a reserve but bad idea anyhow - definite no-no on BASE.

Sorry to repeat you Tom but I think it important.
g.

[JaapSuter]

In case anybody is interested, this weekend I did two hop-and-pops from 3000 feet with a mesh slider and the LRM installed. The slider came down very easily (didn't even have to pump the risers).

On both jumps I threw away my toggles and finished on risers. One the second one, I had a friend (while I left the hanger) unstow a random toggle and put in some random line-twist before closing the container. That made for an interesting opening. Having such an opening with a wall close behind you would be 'exciting' at least .

Cheers,

Jaap Suter