Az Fatality questions (Repost from Az Bounce pt2)

[space]

Only the slider....hmmmmmmmmm
So basically with planform (flat) geometry, this means that 25% of the rear of the canopy is without slider, Wouldn´t that lead to a quadratic equation in aerodynamical opening forces and surges?
Why is Kleggo telling us the real story? Is he giving out secondhand info so more don´t die as the other firsthanders wouldn´t?
Whatever, But please answer these questions via email or on the board.
Was this set up intentional?
If not, how was he packing that allowed him not to notice this mis rigging? Was it his second jump that day with the same configuration? Did he transition his pack job from no/off to up... What were the circumstances? How can we prevent this from happening to us?
Please answer me, You will remain anon when you wish, But don´t let such a dynamic jumper as Schlefy die for nothing. Help us learn from him.
base283@yahoo.com
thanks in advance
space

[guest]

>Why is Kleggo telling us the real
>story? Is he giving out secondhand
>info so more don´t die as the other
>firsthanders wouldn´t?

why?
because no one else saw fit to have the courage, courtesy or time to inform this body of people of a life threatening error.
if he chose to jump his gear slider up without passing the control lines through the slider grommets, or the keeper rings, or both, he made a grave error i.m.o.

i choose to take this opportunity to let people know that this particular gear configuration is not the hot set up.
we learned this >15 years ago.

it blows my mind that this incident has provoked nearly zero discussion on this board.
we assume we know what we are doing.
obviously these assumptions are not always correct.

i too would like to hear the details of this incident.

stay safe,

kleggo

[space]

Thanks Kleggo,
I´m with ya 100%, I will make a new post and Use my Az contacts to find out why these BASErs are acting dishonorable.
space

[Donk]

I am little confused by this thread and would love some clarification. It is my understanding, from this thread, that this was a slider up pack with the control lines removed from the "Slider Grommets" and "keeper rings"...which does not make sense to me. Was this the case?

Following the same line of discussion; when packing slider down (not removed) should the steering lines be removed from the "Slider Grommets" and "Keeper rings" or not. Removing them makes sense in order to clear a line over but I have heard conflicting answers due to the potential deployment risks when doing this. I guess it is an opening speed vs. opening speed w/ malfunction clearing capability decision. I am relatively new to the 300'-500' range and have been flicking this mark with the slider down but have elected not to remove the control lines from either...is this wrong? I.E. what would be the recommended configuration for 400'?

Thanks

Donk

[guest]

He wasn't jumping with any locals as far as I know and none of us know any details further than what Kleggo said.

[space]

Who was he jumping with, email me, you have my word on confidentiality,
space

[guest]

I am relatively new to the
>300'-500' range and have been flicking
>this mark with the slider down but
>have elected not to remove the control
>lines from either...is this wrong?

if you ever need to use the "line-mod" to clear a line-over malfunction; the answer is an emphatic yes!!!!!!!!!
if you never need to use the "line-mod" the answer is no.

as this is what i would consider a basic "conventional wisdom question", please consider receiving additional personal instruction, more personal than you will receive via the base board.

stay safe,

kleggo

[space]

Hi Donk,
as for clarification, it is alledged that this was the case. Slider up/lines out of slider and guide rings or only out of slider.
About your other questions, I applaud you asking questions, but I question your BASE knowledge, Like where/who did you learn from? A relatively high percentage of slider down/off opening result in a tail inversion, or line over due to the unrestricted nature of the steering lines and the attatchment geometry to the tail, Most clear without pilot input. Some don´t.
What are the deployment risks you speak of and what was the source of this info?
Pros- With the LRM (Line Release Mod) ie removed from slider and guiderings, You have the ability to clear an offending brakeline and land closer to parallel with the ground as opposed to spiralling in and acheiving crater status.
Cons- If you drop the toggle, it´s gone and you can´t retrieve it until after you land.
As for it being wrong not to use the LRM, That´s not an issue, Being wise is the issue, If you can justify going against the majority (99% IMHO) of BASErs, then Either you are very smart and know something most don´t know or very ignorant and don´t know something most do. If you don´t recognize and use the LRM advantages, do you also not recognize the advantages of securing your slider down? I´m not getting down on you, but I just saw a broadcasted BASE vid of an unsecured slider. anyway Use the LRM for slider down/off unless spiralling in is cool.
take care
space

[guest]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-01 AT 06:09 PM (PST)[/font][p]Hi Donk:

When you are making a slider down (or removed, for that matter) deployment, you should always remove the control lines from both the keeper rings and the slider grommets (and put them in the tailgate instead, to inhibit line over malfunctions).

Note that I have seen a few jumpers leaving the lines in place (but still using a tailgate) on the general theory that the tailgate will prevent possible line overs and leaving the lines in place prevents potential rigging errors, saves time packing, and/or makes it impossible to drop a toggle. I think this is a VERY BAD idea. I only know one jumper who packs this way and has, in my opinion, the experience to make such a judgment (and even he admits that it's largely a result of personal laziness).

So, my advice (until you clear 500 jumps or decide I'm full of it, or both) is to REMOVE THE CONTROL LINES FROM EVERYTHING (slider grommets and keeper rings) to allow clearing of a line over malfunction.

I think this is a very important point. If you have any more questions about it, please email me, or start a separate thread to discuss it.

Thanks,

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[Donk]

Kleggo, Space, and Tom,

Thank you for the excellent responses. It was more of a question of clarification for myself and some fellow local “flickers”. I do utilize a tail-gate and secure the slider down but have obviously been under the delusion that the tail-gate would "always" prevent the line-over (but sh#@ can happen) and had elected not to remove the control lines from the grommets. Why? The source of this “opinion” was from a personal observation of a LRM configuration and one of the control lines detached during deployment. You can guess the result. Easily cleared but scary non-the less. This is why I had chosen to leave the control lines in the grommets falsely thinking that in the unlikely event of a line-over, clearing a spiral with a hook knife w/o the LRM would be a less violent option than what would be induced by a detached toggle w/ the LRM. But this was obviously wrong and the resounding answer to my question seems to be... remove the control lines from both the slider and control grommets when packing slider down.

As I stated in my previous message, my question was a matter of personal edification as to how to best prepare for sub 600’ flicks. There are many very high and readily available antennas out here but I am trying to get educated and practicing for a newly accessible B (380’) and also attempting to plan a trip to Moab in the near future. This means A’s from 400’ in preparation. So far the results have been superb on-heading openings but do to the weather this past month, I have only been able to get 3 flicks from this altitude to compare. The BASE community out here is very small (only 2 others that I am aware of) with less than 50 flicks each and all have been from very tall Antennas or NRGB w/ slider up. So local knowledge is really non-existent and the BASE Board has been an excellent forum for information – Thank you Mr. Knutson and thank you all again for the very informative and concerned responses.

Lesson learned: It sounds at though I had been making a critical error by not removing the control lines from the grommets and I really appreciate the advice.

One last thought and please do not take this the wrong way because I have a great respect for your knowledge and experience, but I might suggest conscious effort to avoid inadvertently writing caustic or demeaning responses. You do not want to deter any new, ill informed, or under educated individuals in the BASE world from asking questions in this forum that could save someone’s life. Some of people may to thin-skinned or bashful to ask questions that could save a life simply because they fear public ridicule (that’s the instructor in me talking)… but I guess if that is the case then they picked the wrong sport :-)!!!

Donk out.

[guest]

To pick on a specific point of Donks question.

Slider down / slider removed.

What are the benefits / disadvantages of each. I have been told there are good reasons for doing both.

Any factual answers?

MT

[guest]

I believe that there is absolutely no advantyage to tying down the slider over removing it completely, except for convenience, which IMHO is always a poor line of reasoning.

In my experience fully removing the slider is much superior to leaving it tied down. The risers spread more rapidly and readily during deployment and give you better on heading opening performance. I haven't collected data other than my own personal jump info, and anecdotal visual info from other jumpers, so this technically is only an opinion, but it is well founded in the physics of deployment.

Moreover, removing the slider is much more clean for packing, and more simple. I believe that simpler is genrally better in life and in BASE.

However, I suppose that removing and replacing the slider regularly provides an increased opportunity for rigging errors, but again IMHO the advantages surpass this potential concerne, but I feel I am a very careful rigger. I feel the best option is to have two (or more!) rigs, one slider up and one slider removed (or toed down if you prefer) and then you don't have to regularly be adding/removing a slider and reconfiguring lines on the same rig.

[space]

The Major drawback to leaving the slider on and tied down is the possibility of it breaking your back due to an unstable deployment scenario, This also is a problem with 2 canopy rigs as the slider can hang on the reserve container in the event of a stand up type deployment.

A nice tip for the LRM is to tie your toggles 4-6inches above the normal tie mark to take up the slack created by the rerouting.
space

[guest]

I once heard of someone who deployed unstable and flipped through the lines and got all tangled up when there was NO slider - a fear that forces me to keep my slider ON (and down - below the front riser link rubber stoppers) for low jumps - especially when attempting aerials.

Plus the whole "rigging error" problem...

573

[guest]

Hey Donk:

>I might suggest
>conscious effort to avoid
>inadvertently writing caustic or
>demeaning responses. You do not want
>to deter any new, ill informed, or
>under educated individuals in the BASE
>world from asking questions in this
>forum that could save someone’s life.
>Some of people may to thin-skinned or
>bashful to ask questions that could
>save a life simply because they fear
>public ridicule.

This is a GREAT point. I apologize if the tone of my previous post offended you (or anyone else reading it).

I know all too well how hard it is to get good information when you are starting into this sport, and how critical that information is to our safety.

I really do believe that the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. It's even dumber when not asking causes serious injury or death. It's just plain wrong for those with greater knowledge/experience to force others to reinvent the sport.

So, thanks for asking your question--and thanks for calling us on the arrogance of our responses.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu