B.A.S.E Instruction

[guest]

Just for all the people who have asked me about instruction, can someone tell me and them where the line is in the sand as to who can instruct.

In the UK there are few people over the 200 jump mark and i am curious as to when people become suitable,this ones a question for you Space and all the other guys who have expressed opinions on this before...I have no desire to teach because I jump for myself,dont feel experienced enough and realise the responsabilities involved,but in a low experience area like the UK where and to who are "students" supposed to go?

I doubt that this only applies to the uk,so, it may be quite a valid thread to start.I value the training that CR,BR and Vertigo and the like can give people but a student travelling to do one of these courses from outside the USA will be ostensibly "on their own" once they have completed the training.

I have been contacted by a guy who hasnt jumped since he finished his course (last year) because he had no one to jump with and possibly that no one wanted to take a newbie under their wing,would someone with say 60-100 jumps be suitable to "instruct" them or would they just be carrying out the role of chaperone to a blind man?

I am open to comment here but,I feel in the UK we are stuck between a rock and a hard place in so much as everyone talks about people not being experienced enough to instruct...but there isnt anyone experienced enough anyway, so what do the aspiring instructors do...tell all the wannabes to go away for twelve months till the 60-100 jumpers have the "required" air time?

Its just a thread to instigate some discussion..i am not having a pop at anyone...the point need clarifying by the long timers in the sport.

Laters

Sean

[guest]

anyone
@
any level of experience can be an instructor.
IF
they have the courtesy and humility to inform the instructee that the information that they are passing along is to be taken for consideration only and should not be considered "gospel".

all of us have some valuable knowledge we can pass along.
few, (very), have the knowledge and skills to take another's life into our hands and accept the role of a sensei.

stay safe,

kleggo

[guest]

Its an excellent question you ask.

Let me put in another form. How well would a skydiving instructor perform if he/she had 60 - 100 jumps? (OK its not the same but you get the idea)

If there are no people in the area that are experienced enough then it is up to the person to go somewhere where there are good people, or at the least go to objects that are safe (Preferably both and in Europe there are many experienced people and safe objects).

Jumping the local objects because they are the only ones available after finishing the course will not usually give a gradual progression in difficulty. ie. Straight from the balloon to a 200 foot cliff landing on rocks. It can easily be some harrowing survival jump that the student is glad not to die (even with an experienced instructor).

The hardest thing for you, if you do instruct at this stage, will be the guilt if the person gets hurt or worse. Consider it. You will second geuss everything you told the person if an incident results. The fact that you asked this question shows you are already a heads up person that is aware of the risks.

10 years ago and still now I hear storys about a guy with ten jumps grabbing his mate from the DZ and slinging him of a bridge with a dodgey set of skydive gear. Happens all the time. Does the person become a better BASE jumper - NO. In fact they can develop a cowboy attitude, start jumping on their own and even close their eyes to learning because what they do now works (even if it is dangerous).

Some thoughts

Luv SLIM

[guest]

hey Slim..I can assure you I dont teach...I know people who do and some who did but dont anymore and also a lot of wannabes who feel that because people have 60-100 jumps that they are experienced to instruct so its okay to ask them.I have 65 to date and 850 skydives but no way am I in the frame.

The post was aimed at those people so that they can maybe think twice before they teach or be taught badly.I didnt do a course with a manufacturer...the knowledge I was given was not the "whole deal" thats all I am trying to get people to consider before they start learning or intructing B.A.S.E. especially here in the UK.

I will say thanks to the guys that taught me what they knew and theres no disrespect intended.

Ive had a lot of people ask about teaching and I know im not alone in this,the sport is growing....im just wondering if there is possibly an opening for some after market courses for people a little further down the line...I know you and Dwain were advertising something along those lines but I dont know how successful it was.

Any more comments from anyone else would be very welcome.

[space]

Hi Sean,
To answer your questions.
Where is the line?
That would be up to the student, Which would mean that the student could do his/her own research on the various instructors and get feedback on the one most suited to her/his needs. Or not do research and get a "Fonzie".
As for you statement "outside the USA will be ostensibly "on their own" once they have completed the training." I would assume that the international BASE instructors are willing to help their students with any questions about anything in BASE at most anytime.
A great course is one that helps one develop the skills for the easier jumps, then one can progress to develop the skills for more difficult jumps at a forgiving/easier site before moving on to the more difficult ones.

As for playing chaperone to a blind man, If one is not able to assess the skill level of the beginner, things can quickly start to unravel. For example; a perfect and common example of this is;
Student thinks "If he can do it, so can I." High experienced jumper thinks "If I can do it, so can he". All of this without assessment of skills. I like the Chaperone analogy you used. as the Chaperone could lead the blind into dangerous situations easily by not knowing his limitations or the Blind could follow the Chap easily into a dangerous situ unknowingly etc...

As for aspiring instructors, or beginners wishing to advance. I suggest you get together, get some money up to do a BASE camp with well known instructors, and be ready to travel to mainland Europe to a DZ (Tracking,Accuracy), Balloon exits etc., and then finally going to a forgiving site.....Together you can in this way bring up the competency of the sport in your entire country.
The German BASE Assn (VDO) has a 3yr old program in effect to bring jumpers thru the steps of novice-advanced, JM, Instructor and Examiner, with endorsements like rigging,first aid and meteorology being required for the higher licenses along with currency req. And they were also the first to certify BASE specific gear to be able to jump it legally (for the training of students) from aircraft and from objects.....(What´s the deal in the U.K., Must ones main be certified?)
I hope I have given you some ideas..
later,
take care,
space

[guest]

Hey Space..cheers for the reply.The statement "on their own" was aimed at physically rather than mentally.

I can appreciate there is a wealth of knowledge to be had via the web here or from the manufacturers direct,its the "on the ground" knowledge that is difficult to come by.As such people with low experience should realise that if they jump an object with a more experienced person then the decision is 100% their own,not the guy with 100 jumps.

In the UK people are jumping mojos and foxes in their skydiving gear,as far as certification for the purpose thats down to the rigger and Chief Instructor at the DZ to say yes or no.

The BASE course sounds like a good idea for people to progress...not so much the low timers more the intermediates.If there are any "instructors" interested in running such a course...e mail me with some ideas...there are plenty of people here who would be keen.

Space,if you have anyone in mind both here and in Europe then let me know...in the UK everyones so secretive about their stuff it makes them difficult to pinpoint.Any brit jumpers got any comments?

Later

Sean

[space]

Hi Sean!
I´m not sure I understand what you mean by differentiating between physically and mentally. My students are students for life. only when they decide they don´t need me any more are they on their own.
as for your statement;
"As such people with low experience should realise that if they jump an object with a more experienced person then the decision is 100% their own,not the guy with 100 jumps."
The decision is always on the low experienced jumper. and you are absolutely correct, not whether the JM or Inst. has 999 jumps, but people can fall for the egoistic "I know all" as 2 of Fonzies students did.

So, Check out what the DZ Chief instructor and Rigger has to say, I´m confused at what you say, Certification is a government thingy, not DZ. If they are aleady jumping BASE stuff on skydives then blah!!! you don´t need any cert.

I didn´t want to push my skills upon you guys, but this happens to be my expertise. Not pushing my skills, but developing yours.
I will send the info of skill building blocks to you via email. as if I did it in this forum, the poss of newbies thinking it was the answer could lead to not good.

I would be interested in running such a course. One of my students is actually a sports instructor Diplom, who is helping me design my course, we are getting it together with some of the profi´s in the field of extreme sports.
I will put you on the email list for the way to deal with uncommrisks.....
later,
space

[guest]

from my understanding the gear jumped out of a plane in the uk under bpa regulations needs a tso or equivelent for the container and the reserve but the main can be anything that the dzo/rigger on the dropzone feels is airworthy.
just my understanding without going away and searching through therather lage rule book.

[guest]

Sean,
You seem to becomming quite a master for postings on this board, good luck to you. I am in full agreement with you buddy. I am a full time teacher of sport and parachuting, and i am fully aware of the implications of injury and accident within the boundaries of this tuition. But i believe each person will have different qualities to pass on with regard to tuition, and as long as you can pass on the most important safety and technical skills required then you are ready to Pass on knowledge, i do not call this instruction, as this would relate to a governing body, and i am sure there are only few who can relate to that. At cease of play, the only person who makes the decission to jump is the person on the rail!!! If you pass on information, and that person takes it all in, then makes the decission to jump, then you are no more responsible than the man on the street 400' below. Take it or leave it, you jump when you are ready, not when somebody else tells you are good to go!

OUT!

[guest]

I know where you are coming from Paul,ive been there with you most of the way....william the conqueror has been taking a "student" if you know what I mean, and this post was aimed at people like that and the people who have asked you and I for instruction...

Passing on knowledge is a good way of putting it, but when the brown stuff hits the spinny thing then you as the experienced guy there could end up carrying the can.Whether you like it or not!!

Master of postings im not...I just think that because people are interested the points need raising from the UK angle...there is a school of thought that if you have 60 - 100 jumps you are not qualified to instruct..frankly im inclined to agree....what happens if you are a novice (say just off a course) and these are the only people to jump with..(as is the case in the uk)...you jump with them,something goes ##### up for the novice...who will be under the microscope?