Has anyone jumped both of these suits (Skyflyer by Birdman and Crossbow a.k.a. French suit by Parasport Italia)?
Any opinions on the suit's relative merits? What about glide ratio?
Also, does anyone know if there will be a "next generation" French suit (it seems like we're already at the third generation from Birdman, but only at the first on the Crossbow)?
Any help would be appreciated.
--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu
I have about 15 skydives on a Crossbow, and one jump on the second-generation Birdman. I don't think I have enough experience with either suit to comment on performance, since I'm still very much learning to use my suit (the Crossbow).
However, if I can make a couple of comments on construction... The Crossbow seems to me to be much simpler in its construction.
There is no leg cutaway on the Crossbow, which there was with the Birdman. However, the span across the legs with the Crossbow is long enough that I could probably run out a landing without removing the booties. The distance between the feet might be 6 or 12 inches wider on the Crossbow. It's still a good idea to get out of the booties if you can.
I had heard that the arms on the Crossbow were high enough to reach the risers, but this isn't really true. I can reach the bottom of the risers with the Crossbow on, but I can do that with the Birdman as well. To reach, a rear riser without cutting away on either suit, I have to jump up to it.
I like the arm cutaway on the Crossbow better. One handle in the middle of your chest, easy to see and easy to use. The cutaway is split into two cables, so there's only about 12 inches of pull needed to get a complete cutaway of the arms. The cutaway on the crossbow runs along the arm, so if you cut the wing away, it falls completely off your arm. Also, thumb loops cut away with the wings, so your arms are completely free.
On the Birdman, the arm cutaway runs up the side of the body. The cutaway is located by the hips, so for me it's a little harder to locate quickly. The pull needs to be a little longer, since it's all one cable. Also, once the wings are cut away, you still have material on your arms, just that it's not attached to your body any more. Personal preference, I like to have my arms completely free when I cut away, but there could be problems with either system.
I found there seemed to be an awful lot of stitching on the Birdman. I don't know why there is such a difference, but stitching on the Crossbow is minimal, whereas the inside of the Birdman seems to have stitching everywhere. For me, excessive stitching is a bit of a red flag.
I should mention, however, that delivery time on my Crossbow was more than 12 weeks. Initially I was told 4-6 weeks, then 8 weeks, then 10, then it finally showed up after 12. While I'm happy to have the suit now, and it's easy to forget how frustrating dealing with Parasport Italia was, if you have a short fuse for this kind of thing you might want to think twice about ordering a Crossbow.
A friend of mine loaned his Crossbow to an experienced Birdman flyer at Perris Valley. The guy said the suit flew about the same as the Skyflyer, with a couple of differences. He says the Crossbow seems to float more, as in slower vertical speed, but also doesn't travel forward as quickly. He also felt the Crossbow was a slightly more stable wingsuit. This probably means the Crossbow is not as maneuverable, but I think stability could be a very good thing when I start jumping this suit off cliffs (after I put at least 100 skydives on it).
Michael
If the Crossbow floats more, does that mean it will kick in sooner from a dead air launch?
Anyone know? Or just have an opinion? Or want to venture a guess?
--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu
Yo !
I was the one who tried Crossbow at Perris. I cannot judge perfomance based on one flight, especially since the suit was a bit too big for me. It felt slower than Skyflyer, i believe the glide would be comparable if i made a bunch of flights on Crossbow that fits me well. However i doubt i will make a bunch of jumps on Crossbow because it is very, very uncomfortable - at least compared to my Skyflyer. Getting in and out is a pain in the a$$, worse yet Crossbow is painfully hot in the summer due to the lack of zippers. It is a sound aerodynamic desing but horribly impractical. I didn't like arm zippers at all (they are rather hard to unzip under canopy) and i don't like the chest cutaway much either. I was more than willing to endure this hardship for a noticeable jump in perfomance but this is not the case. Combined with a non-existent customer service from Parasport Italia it is a looser. Finally the cutaway/reserve handles can be sucked inside the suit if you are not careful - this doesn't really matter with a BASE rig, though.
There are good things about Crossbow that could make it a great toy. It is easy to fly and will probably take less jumps to learn then Skyflyer.
It flies slower and has a bit more surface which can be a benefit on a BASE flight. At this point i don't think it will start noticeably faster than either of BirdMan suits, though.
To compare glide ratios one would have to put at least a hundred+ jumps on each suit and then make a bunch of GPS flights. Since wingsuit perfomance depends on the pilot more than on anything else, comparing two different people flying 2 different suits is completely pointless.
bsbd!
Yuri.
From the opinions in this thread, it appears that there are pros & cons in the design of both suits. But my question is this: Within the birdman line, is the skyflyer the most suited for base? And between birdman and crossbow, which is better for base. Is one superior or is it strictly a matter of personal preference? I'm sure this topic has been addressed before, but I must have missed it. Any opinions?
Yo !
It is my firm opinion that Birdman suits are MUCH better for BASE flights, because of both safety and comfort reasons.
Within Birdman line, both Classic/GTi and Skyflyer are equally suitable for BASE. Classic is easier to fly, it's a good choice if you have a low number of suit jumps. Skyflyer will give you better perfomance - but you have to learn to fly it first.
bsbd!
Yuri.
http://base416.com
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-01 AT 07:20 AM (PST)[/font][p]Can you elaborate on safety and comfort issues which affect the use of these suits in BASE?
You mentioned the arm zippers before, and the possibility of the cutaway/reserve disappearing into the suit.
IIRC, I found the arm zippers on the GTi to be about as hard to use as those on the Crossbow. Either way, undoing a zipper right up to your shoulder is tricky.
I think you mentioned that the disappearing cutaway issue is not a problem for BASE. I can see that it's a little easier for the handles to disappear in skydiving when using the Crossbow, but in my humble opinion, this is something that proper gear checks can prevent.
You also mentioned that you did not like the cutaway on the Crossbow, and I wonder if you can elaborate on this.
Could you also say a little bit about what apsects of comfort have been important to you in your wingsuit/BASE experience? Thanks!
Michael
Yo !
1. Arm zippers: there is a huge difference between Birdman and Crossbow. Birdman zippers start right at the finger loop, so they are fully stretched and extremely easy and quick to unzip with one hand all the way to the shoulder (it takes me less then 2 seconds). Crossbow zippers are on top of the arm, away from the finger loops and require a second hand that you don't have (or a lot of extra time that you don't have either) to unzip. This leads to the second point:
2. Cutaway handle: even on very low Birdman BASE flights i always unzip my arms instantly and never have to use (and then reassemble) cutaway handles. Crossbow pretty much forces you to cutaway (meaning lost handles and definitely lost time). On some rigs Crossbow's cutaway handle fights with a chest strap. Then you have to disconnect the handle every time you get in/out of the suit (this could be made easier with some quick connector... that's what makes Crossbow suck - details!).
3. Disappearing handles: this is irrelevant for BASE, but you need to make a bunch of skydives first anyway... so the problem is still very important. It will depend on a particular rig/Crossbow combination (while Birdmans will fit pretty much any rig perfectly). This may not be very obvious at gear check, because your handles probably won't be sucked in until you experience considerable G-forces in a nasty spinning mal you really want to chop.
4. Comfort: it may not seem as important... however the entire purpose of flying a suit is to have fun ;-) When i use Skyflyer i hardly notice i have it on the rig. It takes 15 seconds to put the suit/rig on, and the ride up is cool and comfy thanks to unzip-everything design. Crossbow, on other hand, takes much longer to get in/out of, and once you're in you're stuck with it! This means boiling in your own sweat under solid zero-p fabric for 15 minutes or whatever it takes you before the exit. This issues are even more noticeable in BASE environment, when you have to gear-up on a tiny piece of rock and then wait for an hour for a 30-sec hole in the clouds.
Like i said, i would easily overlook all of the comfort issues with Crossbow if it gave me better perfomance, but so far it does not appear to fly any flatter then Skyflyer. I would still love to borrow a well-fitting Crossbow for some GPS flights - if anybody has one please let me know! I will be happy to change my opinion - it's all about FUN ;-)
bsbd!
Yuri.
http://base416.com
Cool! Thanks, Yuri.
I hadn't realized the subtle difference in zipper design, but this makes sense of why it's so hard to unzip the arms on my Crossbow. I'll have to take a look and see if I can modify things in any way to correct the problem. In the mean time, I should maybe practice cutting away the suit and HOLDING ONTO THE HANDLE.
I've noticed the suit cutaway can interact with the chest strap, although so far I haven't remembered to look down during/after deployment to see how they bump against each other.
I hadn't given much thought to what forces would act on the cutway/reserve handles in case of a spinning mal. I'll have to look more closely at the suit and give some thought to this. My only concern with the Birdman suit was that the rig passed through the wing cutaway, but this to me seemed mostly like an inelegant solution, rather than an actual safety concern.
I agree the Birdman is a more comfortable suit to sit around in, although in the air everything feels the same to me. At first I thought the Crossbow would be really uncomfortable while wearing a t-shirt because of the bare arms, but either I've become used to the suit, or it's worn in a little bit. It feels more comfortable now. Still, I'm going to have a look at the suit and see how hard it would be to add leg zips.
Could you comment on Birdman's support? I said in my original posting, and I believe you said the same thing in yours, that Parasport Italia's customer support is lacking. Specifically:
1) What is Birdman's advertised delivery time, and how close does their actual time come to it? As I said before, Parasport Italia's delivery time started at 4-6 weeks, and eventually grew to more than 13 weeks. This was frustrating, to say the least.
For what it's worth, I've always been really happy with Basic Research's support, partly because if they say you'll get your gear on a particular date, in my experience I'll get it on or BEFORE that date.
2) When you order a Birdman suit, what comes in the box? From Parasport Italia, I got the suit and a single cutaway handle (no spares). I thought it might be a nice touch, and not very expensive for them, to throw in an extra handle, maybe a manual. It sounds frivolous, but extras like t-shirts and pull-up cords can also help to smooth out problems like a 13-week delivery time.
3) How hard is it to get in touch with Birdman? Do they respond promptly to e-mail inquiries? Probably the only thing that kept me from losing it completely while waiting for my suit was that my e-mail was answered within a couple of days... Even if the guy on the other end wasn't able to give me an ACCURATE estimate of when I would have my suit.
4) If there's something wrong with my suit, say if the measurements came out wrong, how hard is it going to be to correct those things?
I know Birdman's website is much better developed than the Crossbow website. For me it's nice to be able to go to a website and get some technical information, some safety or flying tips, that kind of thing.
Anyway, please let me know what your experience has been with Birdman's support.
Michael
How would you in the wingsuit community rate the crossbow and the skyflyer as a first wingsuit? I live in a remote part of the world and do not have the opportunity to demo suits. I prefer to avoid purchasing a "beginner" suit if I can, but I also prefer to avoid bouncing with gear that is beyond reason for me to try.
What is the word on new generation suits?
Andre
The issue of handles being sucked into the suit is very real on the French suit. My friend Per Eriksson, who now owns a Skyflyer, encountered a very nasty situation on a skydive where he wanted to cutaway from a rotating Stiletto, only to find his reserve handle sucked inside the suit. To make matters worse the French suit zippers work differently, so if you have unzipped your arms and then cutaway, you will find your wings will float up and cover your handle positions, only exagerating the problem with the sucked in handles. Per had to remove his gloves, after cutting away, to get enough manual dexterity to locate his reserve ripcord inside the suit. It didn't result in a long reserve ride, to say the least. Anyway I'll let him fill in the details.
Its all on video too :-)
http://zelda.spray.se/~lukas/video/lowpull.mov (1.6 Mb Quicktime 4)
Per, and the rest of most of the Swedish BASE wingsuit community, now jump Skyflyers with great results. And Yuri is right, you really need to know how to fly them from aeroplanes first to get the best performance out of them. Not a problem at our DZ (http://www.skydive.se) where skydives from 4000m cost $4 :-).
Also suit fit makes a big difference, to me a well fitting Skyflyer felt more comfortable, and flew better, than a poor fitting Birdman Classic.
There is one drawback, the Birdman Skyflyer color choices really suck, they all seem to be sort of East European faded black, red or yellow.
/Lukas
jeeeeez, i think you can be glad he is alive...close call to the ground...
steve
#684
I've seen that video before, but didn't realize the reason for the low cutaway. Did Per check the snaps before exit? I guess what I'd like to know is if the spinner caused the handle to disappear, or if it was gone before that. I've also thought of the problem with wings covering handles before. It does seem like Birdman's cutaway system helps there.
I agree 100% that you need to put time on the suit in skydives before BASE jumping it. When I first got my suit, I figured I might be able to fly it to about 30% of its potential immediately, and then I'd get better from there. Well, I've got about 15 jumps with my suit now and I'll bet I'm flying it to about 10% of its potential.
As far as colour choice goes, I think you're out of luck any way you go. Parasport Italia offers their suit in red, yellow, blue, or white.
It sounds like the Birdman suit, in its third generation now, is a more refined suit than the Crossbow, although their flight characteristics might be similar. Given that Birdman makes its business building wingsuits whereas Parasport Italia does many other things besides, it seems likely Birdman will make more advances with its suit in the future.
I'm having fun with the Crossbow. Especially since I already have one, I think it's a good suit to learn on. If it looks like there's a danger of the snaps coming undone and allowing the handles to disappear, I may tack the snaps shut when I'm using the suit.
For many reasons, if I get another suit, I will probably look very closely at Birdman's suits.
Michael
...talk about an extraordinary level of pucker factor.. my jaw hit the floor when I watched that video. All I can say is WOW! Glad you made out okay.
gardner
K. Gardner Sapp
Executive Director
The Alliance of Backcountry Parachutists, Inc.
P.O. Box 38202
Atlanta, Georgia 30334
gardner@backcountryparachutists.org
www.backcountryparachutists.org
My suit was not a crossbow really. It was more of a prototype of it. I got it from Loic before he sold the concept. Mine did not have snaps, but after my near death experience I think most "crossbow" suits have them.
Questions about the suit or the low reservride can be mailed to me on "base@home.se"
Have fun!
SeeYa
PerFlare
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