NPS POLICIES CAUSE ANOTHER BASE DEATH

guest · October 25th, 1999, 11:22 AM

If you thought rock climbing should be banned from El Capitan as an "arrogant misuse of a public place and asset," and "an insult to the millions of people who go the parks for some peace and inspiration," you'd at least be a consistent Nazi. Personally, I think Winnebagos should be banned from the Valley, because it's one thing to climb or jump from a cliff, but it's quite another to cruise around there belching hydrobarbons.

Funny how none of you little junior fascists think it's not a crime to have Winnebagos and the sheep who drive them overrunning God's grandest cathedral, but you take exception to a few adventure athletes pursuing their joy on its walls.

Nature AS IT IS? So you want to _drive a hydrocrabon-spewing machine_ into Yosemite Valley on a _PAVED ROAD_ so _YOU_ can "experience nature AS IT IS."

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speed · October 25th, 1999, 11:58 AM

"Every post I have made here acknowledges the personal responsibility" -Base44

EXCUSE ME.. but where in your post did you ever responsibility in your post!! Dont give my your holier then thou bullshit. You blame NPS and thats it.

"Andy West can talk all he wants about personal responsibility,and he's not wrong, but he misses the larger point:"-Base44

This ? Doesnt sound mutal to me and but there is no other point. No matter how bad you twist it it stops at the fact the law was broken. It was put in place under the name of safety (which is bogus I think we both agree) and it was broken and someone died. They win.

If in FACT as you suggest her arm went out, dont you think there would have been a little more thrashing around to reach it with the other arm ???????

Why dont you think about what the real issues are before you start petty name calling and just placing blame on who ever you want to.

(virtue!!) - You can not say it was the NPS fault based on the fact that they have a LAW that prevent the lawful act of BASE jumping. There are channels to go through to get laws changed - we live in a democracy

I am not saying the laws are correct, and I honestly think they are biased by someone who obviously had a bad experience BASE jumping, skydiving or with jumpers, but they were put in place by people we put in official positions. If you dont like it vote!

Finally, she should have jumped her own gear, and did her arm go out? Your right in that case it would not have mattered what rig she used.

But your feeble attempt at name calling just shows how much of a self-serving BASE jumper you really are. When you realize we are all on the same side we may be able to move this sport to the next level my friend.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 12:12 PM

Thanks Jackson! Now that you brought up that excellent point, I HAVE considered what would happen.

So, next time I find myself above the meadow with a total, I'm now prepared for what I am going to do - track like mad for one of the stake-out team at the edge of the meadow.

You know know what they say - if you can't beat 'em, squish 'em! Plus, have you seen the shape some of those guys are in? You just might survive! (don't forget to come out of your track and de-arch!)

guest · October 25th, 1999, 01:12 PM

In your message BASE44 wrote : Suing someone because they _allowed_ you to make a personal choice that resulted in your death or injury is unconscionable cowardice; fighting against a government because it _prohibits_ you from doing something -- and that prohibition results in injury or death, well, thats a little different animal, wouldnt you say?

When we jump, we make a personal choice. (At least I do, no one has ever forced me to make a jump). The governmennt prohibits our hobby, and your personal feelings about how or why it is prohibited are irrelevant. One can choose to honor the prohibition and stay home, or choose to ignore it and face the charges if caught. Those are the "personal choices" available. After the decision is taken to ignore the prohibition, a jump is a jump.

Your argument fails the test of logic.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 01:15 PM

I think BASE jumpers should have some kind of legal access to parks -- not a year-round free-for-all. But something.

But if you think that fewer BASE jumpers will die if they are given legal access, you really need to pinch yourself. You are dreaming. Wake up.

Open the doors to the parks and you'll see more jumps. The law of averages and probability will take care of the rest.

When BASE jumpers start dying legally, who are you going to blame then? Hint: the same people you should be blaming now.

We Skydivers and BASE jumpers are a rare bunch indeed; our capacity for denial is astounding.

This is not a safe sport, it's not safer than driving your car to work -- or whatever other silly cliches we've spouted in years past.

Skydiving & BASE jumping are very dangerous, very unforgiving activities that can be made reasonably safe when pursued by competent people, making smart decisions, using proper gear.

Unfortunately, there will always be the "geek factor" -- those odd ducks who are least qualified and most motivated to be in this sport. I'm more worried about them than the NPS.

Yes, get rid of the Winnbegos. Yes, Rock climbers are carving away the granite and leaving their share of blood on the walls. Yes BASE jumpers are being discriminated against.

But until we get realistic about a few things ourselves, we'll never be accepted in the parks, much less by the public.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 01:40 PM

>Motorbikes are prohibited on most
>trails.

...on most trails; BASE jumping is prohibited in ALL national parks.

>Jet skis are increasingly seen
>as a nuisance and banned.

...on some public waterways; BASE jumping is prohibited in ALL national parks.

>Mountain
>bikes are not allowed on certain
>trails at Mt. Tam where they
>were virtually invented.

...on certain trails, BASE jumping is prohibited in ALL national parks.

Do you get the point? They're our parks, too!

guest · October 25th, 1999, 02:07 PM

I have waited to see what everyone had to say before I "entered the fray". I feel that BASE 44 is totally RIGHT ON. If BASE jumping were legal in our National Parks, Frank would have gone and had a drink with his friends after a successful jump just like I have done many times after climbing a difficult wall. Jan Davis would have jumped her own gear that she was used to jumping and would have probably been the subject of a beautiful video of the successful and uneventful jump. No "circus" of a demonstration would have taken place. No one, except for friends would have even been looking up at El Cap for jumping activity at that exact time. Many other people would either still be alive or not have spent long stretches in the hospital, lost the full use of their legs or ruined their careers if it were not for the ridiculous policies and selective discrimination The National Park Service. I am a big wall and ice climber, skydiver, cave and wreck diver, pilot, motorcycle rider and paraglider pilot. In my opinion, BASE jumping is safer than many of these other sports and activities. It is way safer than Ice climbing, big wall climbing, and cave diving. However, BASE is illegal in our National Parks and these other sports are not. I do not think that anyone was trying to demonstrate the safety of our sport. We BASE jumpers readily acknowledge that BASE jumping is dangerous. And as far as environmental impact is concerned, thousands of tour busses run through the National Parks and in spite of repeated requests, the Park Service will not even ask them to not leave their Diesel engines running for hours while the busses are sitting in the parking lots. There was talk for years of shuttle busses in the parks with low pollution engines, yet the new busses do not met the original criteria. The concessions in the parks run their own tours with smoke spewing trucks pulling hundreds of screaming, pointing tourists and in Yosemite, one can not enjoy the peace and tranquillity of the park for the "bull horns" of the "Green Dragon" which is a tour run about every 20 minutes through the main and lower park by the concession. There is Horse crap on the trail to Half Dome left by the concession. And now there is a plan to close down hundreds of campsites and cut down old growth trees to install luxury motels in Yosemite Valley. The brothers of the Secretary of The Interior are even in control of the concessions in several parks.(can you say - CONFLICT OF INTEREST ?) Climbers routinely throw trash, cans, haul bags and poop al over the walls. Hikers and climbers put a burden on the rescue/body recovery personnel in the parks much more than BASE jumpers. As a matter of fact, Jean Boenish, myself and others have offered to provide insurance for full payment for any rescue services provided to BASE jumpers in the parks as well as supervising safety, training and the permit process just like hang gliding and this was refused by The National Park Service, along with the permits to jump. The Park Service has had years to sort this out and reach a reasonable compromise on the BASE jumping issue. I feel that the responsibility for Frank, Jan and many other fatalities and serious injuries have been a direct result of the National Park Services refusal to reach a compromise with organized BASE jumpers like they have reached with the organizations representing other sports. I strongly encourage the BASE community to think about the FACT that many of the tragedies we are witnessing today could have reasonably and easily been avoided had our NAZI, rights violating(vehicle and home searches, gun laws), murdering(Waco Texas - Ruby Ridge Idaho), lying(the president, the FBI on the witness stand, The National Park Service) government listened to us and taken reasonable action years ago to legalize BASE jumping in our National Parks. Compare statistics for injuries and fatalities resulting from BASE jumping illegally in National Parks to the ones from legal BASE jumps on BLM and at other legal sites. You will be surprised. Imagine if rock climbing and ice climbing were illegal. People would be forced to sneak in and climb at night or in really bad weather to avoid the rangers and many would die. I implore the National Park Service to stop making excuses and legalize BASE jumping in our National Parks, just like climbing and other sports before more needless deaths occur. And to all the wimps who have suddenly decided to get on this board and insult us, I have this to say. We do nothing whatsoever to hurt you or the environment. Go learn to skydive, go learn to BASE jump, go learn to rock climb, go learn to climb a frozen waterfall, go ride a street luge at 70 mph and THEN come back and tell us how you feel. Because, at this point, you are all just mindless, clueless, head-in-the-sand sheep who are blindly following your NAZI government to a "New World Order" just like Germany became under Adolph Hitler. Go get a life and leave BASE jumping to the people who really love it.

Earl Redfern

guest · October 25th, 1999, 05:43 PM

You guys continue to astound me with your utter lack of reading comprehension and logical ability.

Try reading my posts again -- slowly (you know, maybe sounding the words out will help) and hopefull this time you will notice that there are no differences between what I've said and what you're whining about... other than the lovely little straw men you set up... of course, you probably don't know what a straw man is either.

Jeez, did either of you yo yos even make it through high school?

guest · October 25th, 1999, 05:57 PM

Like Ouch and BC, you have a reading comprehension problem that you should address before you address this board like a grownup.

And l;et's get rioght to your point: THERE IS NO LAW AGAINST BASE JUMPING. PERIOD.

THe regulation used was created in the 1950s to address and _regulate_ (not prohibit) aerial resupply of miners and squatters in NPS-occupied zones.

It was used by the pervert Connelly so he could stick it to us the same way he sticks it to little boys. Period.

And then this perverted practice became perverted policy when Connelly's higher ups bought into, and no it has become _institutionalized conduct_ by the NPS bureaucracy. Period.

You _are_ right that we are all on the same side; that's where the glimmer of intelligence comes in. But sayiong that still doesn't stop you from attacking me and everyone else and airing our "side's" internal discussion.

Yeah, I really want you on my side: With "friends" like you, we sure don't need any enemies.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 07:01 PM

Hey 44, sounds like you have some information that needs to be shared. That's twice you have mentioned something about Jan's arm or shoulder. What gives? My question is: If, "it still would have been a one-parachute rig which Jan would have been unable to deploy when her arm went out", what difference would it make if she were jumping her own tried and true rig. She still, "would have been unable to deploy it when her arm went out". That leads me to ask you one more time, how is the NPS partly responsible for Jan's death, and who cares if it was borrowed gear? If you know something relevent to the cause of the accident, then please share it. Otherwise, if you are publicly speculating about a possible cause of Jan going without any evidence before any investigation results are in, then chill out!

guest · October 25th, 1999, 07:12 PM

Good questions. Let me try to answer:

1. Jan had a bad shoulder and from the video record it looks as if it went out on her when she tried to pull.

2. The difference her own gear would have made in the outcome is that her own gear was not a one-parachute, low-altitude BASE rig but a skydiving rig with which she had successfully jumped Angel Falls, bridges, buildings, various antennas, etc, etc.

3. The NPS remains culpable in part for Jan's death because if it was not for their perverted policy of seizing gear for an offense akin to feeding the squirrels (imagine if you got your car seized because you threw a piece of popcorn from it to the animals?). Whether Jan went with borrowed gear because she didn't want Connelly's Cops pawing her beloved gear or just wanted to reduce the monetary loss, I don't know because I didn't talk to her about this jump, but the fact remains: If BASE jumpers weren't treated like criminals by Connelly's Criminal Cops, she would have been jumping her familiar old gear that had kept her alive and safe during many years of adventures and demanding jumps.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 07:14 PM

On point 2: When Jan couldn't pull her main with her right arm, she could have pulled her reserve with her left. As it was, the only option she had was to try and pull a right-side leg-mounted pilot chute with her left arm -- which the video record shows she tried but failed to do.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 08:04 PM

This is the biggest crock I've ever heard. Both deaths were caused by a poor decision made by the jumpers, a decision between money (equipment) and safety. Neither diver was forced to make the decision to use borrowed equipment or to go jump in a river, they made the decision on their own...equipment or safety...equipment! It may be sad that they had to make the decision in the first place, but ultimately they made the decision that led to their demise.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 08:06 PM

This is the biggest crock I've ever heard. Both deaths were caused by a poor decision made by the jumpers, a decision between money (equipment) and safety. Neither diver was forced to make the decision to use borrowed equipment or to go jump in a river, they made the decision on their own...equipment or safety...equipment! It may be sad that they had to make the decision in the first place, but ultimately they made the decision that led to their demise.

guest · October 25th, 1999, 08:09 PM

This is the biggest crock I've ever heard. Both deaths were caused by a poor decision made by the jumpers, a decision between money (equipment) and safety. Neither diver was forced to make the decision to use borrowed equipment or to go jump in a river, they made the decision on their own...equipment or safety...equipment! It may be sad that they had to make the decision in the first place, but ultimately they made the decision that led to their demise.