RESULT: rec.sport.basejumping fails 70:24 :-(

[guest]

----------- RESULT ---------------
unmoderated group rec.sport.basejumping fails 70:24

There were 70 YES votes and 24 NO votes, for a total of 94 valid votes. There were 4 abstentions and 2 invalid ballots.

For a group to pass, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO) votes. There must also be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.

A five day discussion period follows this announcement. Unless serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the group may not be voted on again for six months.

Newsgroups line:
rec.sport.basejumping The discussion forum for B.A.S.E. jumpers.

Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 24 Jan 2000.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Morten Klinge Laursen <klinge@njfk.dk>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>

RATIONALE: rec.sport.basejumping

Like paragliding, B.A.S.E. jumping does not have anything in common with skydiving other than the use of a parachute. B.A.S.E. jumpers jump from fixed objects instead of aeroplanes. B.A.S.E. is an acronym describing the fixed objects that one parachutes from that are "B"uilding, "A"ntenna, "S"pan and "E"arth. At the moment B.A.S.E. postings are mostly made to rec.skydiving and "The B.A.S.E Board" (URL can be obtained under DISTRIBUTION). Rec.skydiving is for
skydiving only and is therefore not appropiate or B.A.S.E. related topics. The B.A.S.E Board is a WWW based medium for reading B.A.S.E. related postings, and due to the increasingly interest for
the sport of B.A.S.E. jumping it is very time consuming to read the approx. 19 postings each day on the WWW based "The B.A.S.E Board" and to scan rec.skydiving (with 200 postings a day) for B.A.S.E. related topics. It is here the newsgroup rec.sport.basejumping is required to unload unrelated topics from rec.skydiving and to take some of the messages from the heavily loaded B.A.S.E. Board to a better suited application (USENET).

CHARTER: rec.sport.basejumping

This newsgroup is unmoderated and distributed worldwide. This newsgroup is intended for all discussions concerning B.A.S.E. jumping, meaning skydiving posts are not welcome.

Appropiate topics for discussion include the following:
- Bridge day and other B.A.S.E. events worldwide.
- Gear discussions
- B.A.S.E. canopies
- Wingloading
- Containers (pin vs. velcro)
- Pilot chutes
- Wing Suits
- Packing techniques
- B.A.S.E. Classifieds (no skydiving gear)
- The laws against B.A.S.E. jumping
- Official B.A.S.E. numbering
- Get in touch with other B.A.S.E. jumpers

Inappropiate posts include:
- Skydiving topics (use rec.skydiving)
- Binary posts

END CHARTER.


rec.sport.basejumping Final Voter list

Voted YES
-----------------------------------------------
alxx#tig.com.au Alex Gibson
raczy#fucam.ac.be Come Raczy
speirs#chebucto.ns.ca "Robert J.N. Speirs"
trevort#vianet.on.ca Trevor Tymchuk
CraigWyllie#sympatico.ca Craig Wyllie
tim#408broad.com Tim Marek
A7WIENS#aol.com Andrew Wiens
FREFALLGUY#aol.com Marc W. Garber
Jeweljumps#aol.com
JSBIRD69#aol.com Jay Smith
SirSkyGodd#aol.com Levin Jackson
SteveHigdn#aol.com Steve Higdon
TowerJump#aol.com
kimdv#best.com Kim DeVaughn
william.warner#bms.com William A Warner
bbeauregard#CIBER.com Brian P Beauregard
craigf#cryogen- craig g fenstermaker
Christian.Fredriksson#ericsson.com Christian Fredriksson
smlucas#famvid.com Steven Lucas
mike.forbes#gentire.com Michael P Forbes
der_poot#hotmail.com Nathan Blaesing
toejam_78#hotmail.com Toejammn Mann
trimblec#hotmail.com Craig=20
kamlet#infinet.com Arthur Kamlet
John#JumpShack.com John B. sherman
wiz#lart.com Mike Craig
acsmith#loudoun.com Skip Smith
cjsonnack#mmm.com Christopher Sonnack
webbslingr#email.msn.com paul webster
tina#aftershock.neosoft.com Tina Marie
salazar#popd.ix.netcom.com Rick Salazar
glb#ontis.com Glenn Banack
squid#panix.com Yeoh Yiu
davep#reactv.com Dave Pifke
andreas.hahn#sap.com Andreas Hahn
anne#skydiveworld.com Anne Heck
base416#yahoo.com Yuri Kuznetsov
jlbearden#zdnetonebox.com Jerry Bearden
Ekkehard.Uthke#gmx.de Ekkehard Uthke
de#kholdan.snafu.de Tobias Erle
chris.sester#t-online.de Christian Sester
bouvin#daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin
klinge#njfk.dk Morten Klinge
pope#mail1.stofanet.dk Povl H. Pedersen
hfung#CSUPomona.Edu Henry Fung
ccq#CS.Stanford.EDU Chris Quaintance
greggf#ufl.edu Gregg Fahrenbruch
credward#email.unc.edu Catherine Edwards
faulkner#eco.utexas.edu Wendy Faulkner
rufinus#mbe.ece.wisc.edu J Rufinus
williamsca#wku.edu Curtis Williams
peedu#skydive.ee Reiko Teepere
fyr news#nabab.teaser.fr Francois Ranchin
doc#america.net Rob Wynne
quietman#cysoft.net Quietman
bodypilot#gmx.net Gerjo Hultink
jmh#gmx.net Jan Haar
rnpilot#hawaiian.net Patricia Brooks
daveg#idt.net Dave Gaige Jr.
derekc#pdq.net Derek
gg#precision.net George Galloway
reagan#online.no Kristen Reagan
daedalus#inet.net.nz Daedalus
kb5cng#amsat.org R.L. Bo Thompson
craig#poxon.org Craig Poxon
djb#v2000.scream.org Dan Birchall
Przemyslaw.Klimek#fuw.edu.pl Przemyslaw Klimek
olow#spray.se Olow Svonni
alex.dawson#uea.ac.uk Alex Dawson

Voted NO
----------------------------------------
pelikan#start.com.au silverpelican feather
FreFlyPope#aol.com
sforsell#aol.com Scott Forsell
stainles#bga.com Dwight Brown
janus#cwo.com Keith Adams
david#farrar.com David Farrar
mick.knutson#headland-media.com Mick Knutson
gprrspw#mindspring.com G.P. Ryan
r5555c#email.sps.mot.com Alan Chapman
Kerry.Ellis#msdw.com Gerhard Erhis
olav#viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar
fran_keeling#my-deja.com
tgm#netcom.com Thomas G. McWilliams
gareth#riscos.com Gareth J Dykes
Abhay.Natu#wcom.com Abhay Natu
naddy#mips.rhein-neckar.de Christian Weisgerber
rick#bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller
ellis#ftel.net Rick Ellis
kneecap#netnet.net Neal Cappel
mmontcha#OregonVOS.net Matthew Montchalin
evert#royal.net Evert Meulie esq
peteralf#softhome.net Peter Alfredsen
murray-paul#usa.net Paul Murray
denebeim#deepthot.aurora.co.us Jay Denebeim

Abstained
----------------------------------------
mcclenon#erols.com Bob McClenon
chris#kzim.com Christopher Robin Zimmerman
philk#telerama.com Philip Knight
spengo90210#yahoo.com SPENGO DIECI RACCONTI

Invalid ballots
------------------------------------------
peanut4040#aol.com Peanut4040
! No vote statement in message
slefenda#hotmail.com Sieglinde Lefenda
! No vote statement in message


To restore the email addresses above, pipe the ack list through the following command:

sed -e 's/#/@/g'

--
Voting question & problems: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Voting address: vote@dogwood.com

[guest]

Hi,

Thanks to all the YES voters for supporting my proposal to create rec.sport.basejumping unfortunately their was not enough of us to pass the proposal.

Kinda dissapointing to see the Moderator of this forum on the NO voting list. A shame that he wants to monopolize BASE jumping on the web with this board. :-(

-Morten

[guest]

Look Who Voted No . . . to rec.basejumping

>mick.knutson#headland-media.com Mick Knutson<

Hey Mick,

Looks like you were the only BASE jumper who voted no, why? :-)

(Something I learned from Todd when discussing a new BASE manufacturer that was starting up; "Don't worry, Nick, the more BASE manufactures the better, it naturally makes the market bigger for us all and it's a positive sign of overall growth.")

I didn't get involved this first time. (My own ignorance of how newsgroups came to be). But now that I see we were beaten by a bunch of recDOTskydivers (like Peanut?) who doesn't know jack about BASE, or skydiving for that matter :-), it's now become a matter of principal.

It's WAR!

Mortan,
Please keep us posted on when we can try again. Also, I must confess to not reading the full posts you put up. My fault, sorry. Thanks for your efforts. I'd also like to know a little more about you. (Or, am I the only one who doesn't know you?)

Nick_BR

[Dave]

Nick wrote:
*****************
I didn't get involved this first time. (My own ignorance of how newsgroups came to be). But now that I see we were beaten by a bunch of recDOTskydivers (like Peanut?) who doesn't know jack about BASE, or skydiving for that matter , it's now become a matter of principal.

It's WAR!
*****************

hmmm....I notice 15 "regular" posters to rec.skydiving among the "yes" votes.

The only "no" voter I see who posts to rec.skydiving with any frequency is Mick.

Peanut, as irritating as he might be, was an invalid vote, not a yes or no.

Dave

[imported_mknutson]

It is just my opinion and right to vote "NO". As everyone elses opinion to "Vote" or even to come to my site. This is an opinion and a right. Whether it benefits me or not, my opinion is still "NO"! :-)

Why do I feel it would not help the community as a whole to have a news group:

1. AOL, WebTV, other Cable Internet Services and many other types of Internet service can not get NNTP news group access. Many of the weekly user to my site fall within this catagory. That means that many people would not be able to get to the news group EVER.

2. A news group is too cluttered in my opinion. There are too many postings about everything under the sun. There is no way to seperate those postings in something legible like segregated, topic specific discussions forums. Like I offer! :-)

3. A news group is totally unmoderated. So what about all the people at work or on governement sites that can get in serious trouble if pornography, prophanity or other offensive and unappropriate material is viewed or accessed in any way while on the job site? BIG TROUBLE!!! :-(

PROS AND CONS ABOUT WEB BASED DISCUSSION
========================================
Pros:
-----
* Control over pornography, prophanity or other offensive and unappropriate material.

* Content Specific discussion groups.

* Far more advanced and user friendly interface. Easier to use.

* Better historical recording of all postings. The threads are in a very understandable format and can be searched using a common search engine. JUST LIKE THE ONE I HAVE HERE FOR EVERYONE!

CONS:
-----
YOU TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!!


--
Thanks

Mick Knutson
BLiNC Magazine

"Everything you ever wanted to know about BASE Jumping, but didn't know who to ask."
--

[imported_mknutson]

[h2]Here is my mature response:[/h2]
I believe there was a great display of democracy in this vote. The regulation however, did not favor in victory.
I really feel that distributing information around the world is very important. I am not doing this to monopolize. Yes I really like the notoriety. Who wouldn't. But the bottom line is this. I am one of the very best E-Business programmers/designers in the world! So I am using my expertise to create something that is going to work as good as earthly possible. This means creating services that will work for users all around the world.

Everyone comes to "MY" web site because I am good at creating a system that works for everyone, anywhere in the world. This is not monopolization. This is good business.

[h2]Here is my immature response:[/h2]
Morten, on behalf of everyone who entered the vote, I would like to thank you for the following:

1. For adding everyones e-mail address to the world! Every week I get about 3 to 5 "Spam" tools accross this site looking for any and all e-mail addresses. These tools "Scrape" email addresses from web pages. This means that you just added 94 names to a "SPAM" list around the world.

2. Violating everyones privacy! I have implemented a way to "Hide" your e-mail address on this forum. This is for everyones "Privacy".

I guess this was needed to prove a point about "ME". :-)

This is my baby. I have been running this thing since 1994.

I just couldn't live with myself not being in control of all of you :-)


--
Thanks

Mick Knutson
BLiNC Magazine

"Everything you ever wanted to know about BASE Jumping, but didn't know who to ask."
--

[guest]

Did anybody notice after the 2nd call to votes that somebody posted their vote of NO to rec.skydiving. They also tried to persuade others to do the same. Could this constitute a voting irregularity? If enough people complain maybe the guy will redo the votes.

[guest]

Hi Mick

First of I would like to comment your Immature response from above:

1. As to the list of email adresses posted try to notice that the at sign in all adresses has been removed and replaced with an #. Therefore it's not that easy to grab all the adresses for spam purposes which offen is done automatic by robots scanning for email adresses.

2. I've just posted the result which the volunteer votetaker have done to rec.skydiving, news.announce.newgroup, news.groups according to voting rules. So if you don't know what happens to your vote please don't vote next time.


And to the CONS of "The B.A.S.E. Board"
--------------------

- No freedom of speech

- Your not able to see which messages you have read, meaning you have to scan the same messages over and over to be sure not to miss anything.

- Slow page because of graphics

- Unable to read offline (expensive reading)

All the CONS above is what you would have got rid of if you had voted YES to rec.sport.basejumping



And now to shoot some holes in your PROS
-------------------
> * Control over pornography, prophanity or other
> offensive and unappropriate material.

How much of that do you see in rec.skydiving ... let us say close to none.

>* Content Specific discussion groups.

And rec.sport.basejumping wouldn't be specific??????????

> * Far more advanced and user friendly
> interface. Easier to use.

Perhaps... until you made the new design, where you have to be almost a computer engineer to read the postings.

> * Better historical recording of all postings.
> The threads are in a very understandable format
> and can be searched using a common search
> engine. JUST LIKE THE ONE I HAVE HERE FOR
> EVERYONE!

OK I'll give you that!

That's 1 out of 4.

-Morten

[imported_mknutson]

I will now reply to your comments:

>
>1. As to the list of
>email adresses posted try to
>notice that the at sign
>in all adresses has been
>removed and replaced with an
>#. Therefore it's not that
>easy to grab all the
>adresses for spam purposes which
>offen is done automatic by
>robots scanning for email adresses.
>
I have been developing internet applications since 1993. This # trick is over 4 years old! This is a trick that does not work.

>
>2. I've just posted the result
>which the volunteer votetaker have
>done to rec.skydiving, news.announce.newgroup, news.groups
>according to voting rules. So
>if you don't know what
>happens to your vote please
>don't vote next time.
>
I personally don't care what you do with my e-mail address as everyone in the world has it already. I am also my own boss so nobody can fire me. I was thinking of everyone elses privacy.

>
>And to the CONS of "The
>B.A.S.E. Board"
>--------------------
>
>- No freedom of speech

The only freedom one doesn't have here, is the right to post profanity or pornography.

BTW. I let you post this request here. And I personally don't agree with it. Because that is your freedom of speach!


>
>- Your not able to see
>which messages you have read,
>meaning you have to scan
>the same messages over and
>over to be sure not
>to miss anything.
>

There is a help page on this forum on how it works. If someone registers with the forum, it keeps track of which messages you have not read since your last visit. There are about 75 features you get when you register. They are all designed to help speed up your access to the forums and make everyones life easier.
http://www.baselogic.com/cgi-bin/for...rd.cgi?az=help


>- Slow page because of graphics
>

I have turned off all of the icons on this forum. I have also have moved most of the BASE jumping photos to a specific gallery.
The graphics are not the slow part of this site. The html design is. And I am redeisigning the HTML right now. I should have it out in about 3 to 4 weeks.


>
>- Unable to read offline (expensive
>reading)

In the forum help section, there is a function available to everyone who registeres called "Subscription". This is an e-mail that I send out once a week. THis way you can browse through the postings off-line!
http://www.baselogic.com/cgi-bin/for...rd.cgi?az=help


>
>All the CONS above is what
>you would have got rid
>of if you had voted
>YES to rec.sport.basejumping
>

That is your opinion. You are allowed to have it. I am here to use what I know about the 3,000 users that come to my site every week. My stats help me understand what users are able to view and how fast. If I really didn't care about making sure everyone could benefit from an Internet service, I would have developed a site in VRML or Java Applets or something.


>
>
>And now to shoot some holes
>in your PROS
>-------------------
>> * Control over pornography, prophanity or other
>> offensive and unappropriate material.
>
>How much of that do you
>see in rec.skydiving ... let
>us say close to none.

I see profanity everywhere!


>
>
>>* Content Specific discussion groups.
>
>And rec.sport.basejumping wouldn't be specific??????????

What about a forum for just general discussion, and one for just technical, wingsuits, BASE Numbers, Internet help for BASE JUmpers, Manufacturers specific forum, Association specific forums. etc....


>
>> * Far more advanced and user friendly
>> interface. Easier to use.
>
>Perhaps... until you made the new
>design, where you have to
>be almost a computer engineer
>to read the postings.

There is a very easy help section that I recommend everyone go to. This will take 30 minutes one time to read, and will be a world of help.
http://www.baselogic.com/cgi-bin/for...rd.cgi?az=help


>
>> * Better historical recording of all postings.
>> The threads are in a very understandable format
>> and can be searched using a common search
>> engine. JUST LIKE THE ONE I HAVE HERE FOR
>> EVERYONE!
>
>OK I'll give you that!
>
>That's 1 out of 4.
>
>-Morten

[h2]
This has been my freedom of speach. Just my opinion.
[/h2]

Moten, I did not stop you from starting a newsgroup. I just voted against it. THis was my right. If you want to continue to pursue the newsgroup, more power to you! I do not feel it will hurt "BLiNC Magazine", but could hurt the base community as a whole. This is by splintering the community into an even smaller group than we already are. By banding our community together, we create a stronger force to help progress the sport for the entire world.


--
Thanks

Mick Knutson :-)
BLiNC Magazine

"Everything you ever wanted to know about BASE Jumping, but didn't know who to ask."
--

[guest]

Seems to me that Morton had the good of the sport in mind while Mick has his own good in mind.

I didn't vote this time either, but I surely will next time!!!!!!

[guest]

The criticism of Mr. Knutson's vote on a rec.base jumping newsgroup is so dialectically idiotic I had to laugh.

Just how exactly would Mr. Laursen's election would have happened at all without Mr. Knutson's gracious and mature _support_ of your efforts?

As a controlling agent, Mr. Knutson allowed the _process_ to move forward on his site when he could have summarily prevented it from happening at all.

As an individual, Mr. Knutson then participated in that process with his single vote just like everyone else.

What Mr. Laursen should have done instead of whining about Mr. Knutson's vote (and bold-facing his name on the "no" list, know less!) is extend a heartfelt "thank you!" to that unconscionable "control freak" for helping Mr. Laursen's pet project along.

And if he has any class, he will offer an apology along with that thank you.

As for the others, you remind me of that dialectically challenged oxygen thief who thinks Dennis McGlynn hasn't done anything positive for the BASE community.

And finally, thank _you_, Mr. Laursen, for your efforts to create a rec.base newsgroup. I appreciate the work and time and passion you put into your project. If there were even 100 people like you and Mick and Dennis out there, we'd already be legally swooping in Nazi Punk Land.


Love,

Robin

[guest]

I, a mere BASE board commoner, would just like to offer a few words in support of Mick and his efforts.

Although I applaud Morten's well-meaning efforts on behalf of the BASE community, I believe that not only is the BASE board a better forum than a newsgroup, but Mick has been very professional in allowing the promotion of the newsgroup on the BASE board. Actions speak louder than words--free speech is alive and well in this forum!! Businessmen do not normally advertise their competition on their websites (ie, picture seeing a Mojo ad on the BR website!), so either the BASE board is more than just a business to Mick, or he's nuts. I'm betting it's the former. If he wanted to monopolize the "industry," he could have banned the newsgroup attempt from the BASE board--if it didn't have enough votes WITH his help in advertising, imagine how many it would have had without it. And in the end, his one vote against it didn't count any more than Morten's vote for it, so I fail to see any relevance in Mick's exercising his right to vote like everyone else.

I, a mere BASE board commoner, consider myself mildly computer illiterate. I use them a lot but have no technical knowledge of computer languages and programming--I can't even figure out how to make a home page. But, despite my computer shortcomings, I can use the BASE board--I haven't registered and haven't read all of Mick's directions, but I still find it extremely easy to get access to all the postings and extra information available on the BASE board. As a beginner, that extra information (gear sites, technical considerations, etc.) is very helpful. So any discussion of the BASE board being hard to use is ridiculous--if I can do it, anyone can.

On the other hand, I find the newsgroup format to be fairly useless...it's impossible to get organized information on a topic (plus you can't see what's in the beginning of the message like you can on the BASE board), and it's full of profanity which I find offensive. I travel quite a bit, and most of the computers I use on the road cannot access newsgroups but CAN visit the BASE board on the web. Lastly, (remember I'm computer-deficient and wouldn't know this), can our foreign friends that access the BASE board access the newsgroup too? If not, that would definitely detract from the value of a BASE forum.

So I have to agree with Robin in his support of Mick and his work, and should the newsgroup effort resurface again in the future, I will be exercising my right to vote against it.

Signed,
The Commoner

[BASE359]

If the Usenet newsgroups are such evil empires, not worthy of our time, I wonder why Mick posted about the SF BASE hearing on rec.skydiving?

BASE359

[Mike]

Stop being childish. Why is everyone crapping all over Mick anyway? Even if he hadn't voted, enough others DID vote AGAINST it. THAT'S WHY there is no rec.basejumping newsgroup. Or maybe that's his fault too, what with all the anti-newsgroup propaganda on the board. Stop whining about who votes no, and maybe, just maybe try stirring up some yes votes. I didn't even know it was going on, so I didn't vote. But, now that the facts are out, I will probably vote no if given the chance. Unless someone with a logical perspective can persuade me to do otherwise... (I'm waiting) So far, Mick is the only one in this discussion making any sense. The rest of you need to stop whining and stop blaming individuals for not agreeing with you.

[Mike]

>So far, Mick is the only
>one in this discussion making
>any sense.

Excuse me, Robin and "the commoner" seem to have their heads on strait as well.