5th upper control line

[freeradical]

I have 5 serious questions about this 5th upper control line thing that I ordered on my next BASE canopy.

From what I understand here are the pro's and cons:

Pros:
More control when turning with the brakes
More tail used in flair making better more effective flair
More efective deep brake settings becuz more of the tail is set deep

Cons:

costs money
are there any others?

potential/ questionable cons:

is it a CON that since most line overs happen with the brake lines that with the 5th upper control line you just have one more line hat could give you a line over?

It seems to me that since the 5th lines are in the middle it would be the least likely brake line to go line over.... but i HAVE two friends that spun in with line overs on their parachutes with the 5th control line set up, so that is why I ask.

big BASE canopies lead to soft landings and turning fast is usually not a problem in the event that you have to make a quick move BASE jumping...so since soft landings and turning hasnt been a problem then why did I pay extra for that extra 5th line if there is any true cons?

also, is it a CON that there (depending on manufacturer) is a larger clump of lines at the line junctions for the slider to have to slide over? or is that not a problem?

last question... could you just cut it off if you decided you did not want it or would you have to like take it to a rigger or manufacturer to alter/ remove it?

thanks in advance to any manufacturers or users/ observers of these canopies that can answer these questions

later
jt

[Spiderbaby]

Having 2 friends who spun in with this 5th line attached sure sounds like a potential con, dude. I however have no technical info for you other than that. I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback from others. Where is that Tom Aiello when you need him?

[huckleberry]

I wish I had some answers for you brother.
but I defiently know McMonkey is woosie...I mean McConkey.
thanks for the water jumps man! hope your having fun tonight!
Hucklberry

[Faber]

By only having 40+ jumps whith 5th line mod,my words dont count much... that in mind i never had a problem whith it(only slider off jumps).

[imported_Tom Aiello]

> is it a CON that since most line overs happen with the brake lines that with the 5th upper control line you just have one more line hat could give you a line over?

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: By that reasoning, a canopy with three control lines ought to be even less susceptible to line over, and we all ought to remove more control lines. In fact, carried to it's logical conclusion, this line of reasoning would lead us to remove our control lines entirely, and control our canopies with riser input only. Adding additional inboard control lines will not significantly increase your chance of line over.

> but i HAVE two friends that spun in with line overs on their parachutes with the 5th control line set up, so that is why I ask.

Can you give us more details about the jumps on which this happened?

Given the circles you jump in, I might hazard a guess that the (un)pack job and deployment method would be the culprits. The CR canopies with 5 upper control lines (Ace, Blackjack), which are likely the ones involved in the incidents you refer to, are the canopies on the market worst suited to McConkey deployments. This is because the Ace/BJ has lines several feet longer than any other canopy on the market. That means that it is far harder to maintain appropriate line tension throughout the rollover maneuver. For the same reason, the Flik (which has by far the shortest lines on the market) is probably the best choice for a dedicated McConkey canopy.

That's all just a guess, though. Without more info about the deployments in question (type of deployment, type of canopy, wind conditions) I can't really say.

>...so since soft landings and turning hasnt been a problem then why did I pay extra for that extra 5th line if there is any true cons?

The objects you are jumping in your regular area are extremely easy. The need for improved toggle response and flare power is most dramatic on difficult, technical objects, particularly those with bad landing areas. This is probably why one of the leading proponents of the 5 line configuration was DW (lots of experience landing in Australian landing areas--which can often demand powerful flares). I'd guess that you don't need a 5th upper control line, simply because the typical objects you are jumping probably don't demand state of the art gear, and can be jumped in relative safety on standard old school (i.e. unvented, with four control lines) canopies.

>also, is it a CON that there (depending on manufacturer) is a larger clump of lines at the line junctions for the slider to have to slide over?

Since the slider moves downward when the lines expand and drive it, the slider should always be sliding over a set of lines that are expanding against it. In that sense, the slider moves down one continuous "clump" throughout it's downward travel. So, no, I don't really see much of a risk there, either.

There _might_ be some increased risk of tension knot, due to the larger cascade. But I personally have seen no evidence of this, and while it might be interesting to do some research into it, I doubt such research would prove particularly fruitful.

>last question... could you just cut it off if you decided you did not want it or would you have to like take it to a rigger or manufacturer to alter/ remove it?

You could probably just cut it off. But I wouldn't do that unless you understand the overall line trim of the canopy. On a canopy previously released with fewer control lines (like a FOX or Troll), that wouldn't be an issue. On a canopy designed for five control line attachments, you'd be test jumping the new configuration, with all attendant risks.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[JJ]

>This is because the Ace/BJ has lines several
>feet longer than any other canopy on the market.

Therefore, would it be fair to say that these canopies would be more susceptible to line twists in a slider up configuration??? Just seems logical this would be the case... Plus! all those people I've heard of over the years that had line twists and snively two staged openings for no apparent reason on the ACE/BJ setup...

>The objects you are jumping in your regular area are extremely
>easy.

If you asked me...that sounds like a dig of some sort...

>I'd guess that you don't need a 5th upper control line, simply because the typical objects you are jumping probably don't demand state of the art gear, and can be jumped in relative safety on standard old school (i.e. unvented, with four control lines) canopies.

Hell, they probably don't even need to flare! In fact, probably don't even need canopies...You should jump with an umbrella or maybe a handkerchief...;)

>>also, is it a CON that there (depending on manufacturer) is a
>larger clump of lines at the line junctions for the slider to
>have to slide over?

Here comes the plug..."That's why you should buy a FLiK!!! BR figured that out years ago thanks to a little troll-like self-appointed BASE GOD..."

I love the BASEboard!

PS. - Tom, thanks in advance for that package...I look forward to opening it!!!

JJ:+

[imported_Tom Aiello]

>Therefore, would it be fair to say that these canopies would be more susceptible to line twists in a slider up configuration???

I don't think so. I believe that openings are dependent on a lot more than line length. Some canopies woudl be ideally trimmed with longer lines, some with shorter. It's impossible to generalize that longer/shorter lines are better for all possible canopies.

>Plus! all those people I've heard of over the years that had line twists and snively two staged openings for no apparent reason on the ACE/BJ setup...

Hmmm. Like the guy who has your old job in Lysebotn? Oh, wait, he's jumping a Flik, isn't he? :P


--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[JJ]

>I don't think so. I believe that openings are dependent on a
>lot more than line length. Some canopies woudl be ideally
>trimmed with longer lines, some with shorter. It's impossible
>to generalize that longer/shorter lines are better for all
>possible canopies.

Well...just think about the physics of line length and a weight hanging from it. Is it easier or more susceptible to twist if the lines are longer? Well....YES! The shorter the lines are in relation to the span/chord the less potential for twising. Add in a smaller sized slider and what do ya know...you have line twists!

Here comes the plug.."BUY A FLiK! - they have less potential for line twists and MORE potential for on-heading openings because they have shorter lines and larger sized sliders - in relation to what's out there...!"

>Hmmm. Like the guy who has your old job in Lysebotn? Oh,
>wait, he's jumping a Flik, isn't he? :P

Well... we all know you can't trust an Australian! He could be jumping a Raven for all we know! And, he has troulbe remaining stable in freefall - must be all that 8 way RW...

JJ}(

[Ray Losli]

NOW THIS IS THE HEALTHY BANTER I am used to reading.
I think you pissed him off...JJ I am surprised at TOM and his comeback with that attitude he will be dragging DZ. down to the low quality BITCH SLAPPING FEST on baseboard. Ohhh this is the base board. He acts much SWEETER on DZ com. Is this a double standard???
This is Truely Divisive posts from the both of YOU, and I stand far apart from my country men,and will not lower myself....NOT. HE HE
You guys have fun. The rest of the BASE comunity owes great thanks to J.J. for opening my cage door and letting me out to throw in my Two Cents. I LOVE BASE JUMPING.
>>>RAY LOSLI

[Clif Huckstable]

Hey would ya look at that! My name at the top of the Base Board again! God dam, I'm famous as fuk!
And by the way its spelled: Wussy not woosie you ignorant shiitbags!

[Ray Losli]

J.J. the Flik is a pretty good canopy. Once you learn how to slow it down on the openings. The short lines/Big slider = faster harder openings, BUT better headings, less line twists. Short lines also give a more responsive turn with a toggle. BUT sporty is not always better, that is the taste of the pilot who is flying.
The 5th upper control with the larger stabilizers. The larger stabilizers gives less air bleed off the bottom of the foil/wing. You put the two together, extra control line + Bigger air dams / stabilizers. You get a lot more control and stability when you are doing a tight flat turn, when setting up to land in tight areas.
It is also a flat flying wing. You get a good glide ratio. The one thing I have noticed though is that because it is trimmed to fly flatter you have to let it go and fly just before you flare to get that tip to landing . I find it hard to that tip toe landing when time comes to take an aggressive, steep line of approach . When you cant let it fly before you flair. A little more air Speed is your friend. But that is just me.
When I dont give a crap about a long distance canopy ride. When I have a landing area just bellow and in front of me. I use another canopy. 285 v-tec. Steep and dirty and I know I can sink it down and save just a couple of good flaps on the flair to stand up. But that is just me.
I think you people expect to much from a canopy manufacturer to make a canopy that will do EVERYTHING. I dont think that is posible. and I try to cover my bases by using a diferent canopy for a different job.
A couple of years ago the manufacturers got into a VENT your canopy war. That was not bad we as pilots got the benifits. But now we are face with even More Choices in what to buy.
If you are pretty Green as a BASE jumper, and don't have a lot of Skydives to help understand the mechanics of the way different wings fly you are screwed. YOU have to rely on word of mouth from who ever you are talking to or teaching you to jump. ...GOOD LUCK...
What has saved my ass as a jumper is to keep you'r ears open and try to pick up what you can from better jumpers. Some of you people should not bull #### yourselves. There is always somebody better than you. Then try to get all the canopy fly time you can. With more than one canopy. This is just my opinion but like I said..Good Luck

...Ray Losli...

[Tree]

Yo JJ,

Longer lines do not neccessarily mean more/more severe line twists. There are far too many control inputs (in the equation of a line twist) that effect the system that just having longer lines is not/can not be the culprit. Otherwise, wouldn't base canopies have 8' lines? Of course not. Shorter lines also transmit inputs (intentional and otherwise) more quickly, and cause the canopy to dive more (not a good thing in base). More important than line length would be the angle between the line groups from left riser to right riser. As far as a flik having less potential for line twists and off headings.... Just how many line twists are you getting? You might want to go to the DZ and work on freefall stability if you are having that many problems. ;~) I also doubt that with any statistically reliable data that the Flik would have any better on heading performance than any other canopy. BTW, did you get a job yet?

Cya,

Tree :P

[Ray Losli]

Yo TREE...I am not talking for JJ but I could not help wonder if you throw out all the other variables like body position, cross wind, delay speeds etc.That affect the outcome of heading on opening.
shorter lines slam the slider down faster.
Does this not mean that when the wing is inflating to its full span there is greater force spreading and pushing the slider down.
More force in the span inflation, that is pushing the slider down is directional and a positive influence in the heading. Think about it.
How much ? Who knows ? but I can't help wonder.
..Ray Losli

[Tree]

Hi Ray,

I am not a aerodynamic engineer, but I understand many of the physical relationships that are going on during a parachute deployment. Throw out the variables you mentioned, and there are still many others. A larger slider is effected more by the relative wind and pushes mroe against the force of the openig canopy. These counter-acting forces proabbly have more to do with line twists than any single iten like line length. Canopy trim could also effect line twists. Excessive line friction could inhibit slider movement, contributing to line twists. Grommet size on the slider can effect slider motion as well. Placement of control lines definitely affects openings, since the inflation of the tail is a major force in pushing the slider down the lines. The entire deployment sequesnce is an intensely dynamic interaction of forces, too much so to simply say that shorter lines is a panacea for better heading and reduced line twists. Surely if this was the majic bullet for BASE canopies it would have been discovered sooner. I wouold love to hear from Adam F. on this issue as he has spent years refining BASE canopies. Better yet, how about PD or Precision. If only it were so easy as "shorter lines".

Who knows?

Tree

[Ray Losli]

No joke there... I would really like to hear from someone in the industry who has the formal training, and could explain questions like this.
There are a lot of conopies out there on the market right now.
Standard Fox, Fox v-tec, Flik, Black Jack, Ace, Troll, Dragon, Dagger, Still a lot of Mojo's running around.
They all fly a little diferent, But I am sure that the more jumps that are accumulating on these new vented and airlocked canopies. There are going to be Questions.
Basicly I have been flyng some of them and trying to figure out these diferences in flight mechanics. Its fun but sometimes frustrating.
I Don't Know, I just Fly The Damn things.
..Ray Losli...