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Thread: Techical details....(long)

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  1. #1

    Techical details....(long)

    I recently read the posts from Wayne Stout regarding his beliefs about the cause of his son's death. There were some very basic inaccuracies in his statements regarding equipment. This is understandable given that he is not a parachutist.

    However I was concerned that many of the jumpers who posted in response accepted these inaccuracies without debate. Only a handful of people (Yuri, JJ, Doug and a few others) pointed out some of these inaccuracies. This indicates a very low level of basic knowledge about the equipment used in this sport. Lack of knowledge in this area is extremely dangerous and I feel it needs to be addressed. This post is meant to educational in nature, not a criticism to Wayne.

    To address some of the points made:

    From Wayne Stout:
    >> Two of the major manufacturers of Base
    >> equipment have internet
    >> sites with training information posted for their
    >> clients. Both of these
    >> sites would suggest that Brian was dead before
    >> he walked out on that
    >> bridge to jump with the other 7 jumpers.
    >> Brian was using a 38" Pilot Chute, a 6'9" Bridle,
    >> went stowed, and was
    >> assigned a 1-2 second delay for deploying his
    >> Pilot Chute. Any one of
    >> these factors alone would not be a major cause
    >> for alarm - all of them
    >> in tandem were a death sentence for Brian.


    In order to address this it is necessary to first outline the different stages of deployment from p/c release to full canopy inflation. The example given here is for a slider removed square (phase 1-6) or for a round canopy packed without a diaper (phase 1-5).

    Phase 1: Pilot Chute (p/c) is released
    Phase 2: p/c reaches bridle stretch
    Phase 3: p/c inflates
    Phase 4: p/c extracts canopy to line stretch (there are multiple sub-stages here such as container opening, extraction of canopy from container and lifting of the canopy to line stretch)
    Phase 5: canopy achieves bottom skin inflation (there are multiple sub-stages here)
    Phase 6: canopy achieves cell pressurization (there are multiple sub-stages here).

    The manufacturer’s recommendations for p/c size are in regards to Phase 4 only: the speed of canopy extraction.

    In regards to this incident, the fatality occurred because a malfunction occurred at Phase 3 (p/c inflation). The incident had nothing to do with Phase 4 (speed of canopy extraction). The manufacturer's delay/pc size tables are therefore not relevant to this fatality in any way.

    ***
    However on a side note, the usage of a 38" p/c at delays of less than 2 seconds is very common and very tested (often because people do less of a delay then they plan). Canopy extraction will take slightly longer (perhaps 1/3 of a second longer) at a 1.5 second delay than a 42" p/c and about 1/2 a second longer compared to a 48" p/c at this delay range.
    These extraction time differences only become critically relevant when the exit altitude is extremely low (e.g. sub 230’) or if the landing area is distant. In regards to something in the height range as the Perrine Bridge (486') the p/c sizes commonly used (in the 38" - 48" range) is more relevant in regards to other issues such as center cell stripping.

    A 38" p/c is probably the second most commonly used p/c at the Perrine Bridge (after the 42" p/c). I know one major gear manufacturer that prefers to use a 38" p/c at the Perrine Bridge with 2 second delays despite the extraction speed recommendations on that persons website.

    I doubt that any knowledgeable gear manufacturer would state that a 38" p/c is unsafe or unwise to use with a 1.5 second delay from 486' given the landing area options of the Perrine Bridge. This pc size/delay combination has been used thousands of times and will continue to be used by the BASE community.
    ***

    In regards to Phase 3 (p/c inflation speed), the opposite is in effect compared to Phase 4:
    In general, the smaller the p/c the FASTER it will inflate.

    The same logic works for round parachutes: for example a 19' diameter round canopy will generally inflate faster than a 26' round. This is common knowledge.

    The fatality at the Perrine Bridge occurred because the p/c failed to inflate. In regards to p/c inflation alone, a 38" p/c is more reliable than a 42", 45", 48" p/c (or whatever size some people think should have been used to avoid this fatality).

    The size/delay combination used by Brian is acceptable and commonplace in the sport of BASE jumping provided minimum exit altitudes are adhered to.
    In summary the diameter of the p/c used in this incident was not a factor.

    Another point of clarification to Wayne Stout:
    In BASE jumping, the term "delay" refers to the time period from leaving the exit point to releasing the pilot chute. Many non-BASE jumpers make the incorrect assumption that delay refers to the time period from leaving the exit point to line stretch (or the commencement of deceleration).
    Wayne stated that Brian was previously taking 3-4 second delays at the Perrine. A 4 second delay with a round canopy at the Perrine results in an extremely low deployment. (I have seen people hit the water hard, without fully pressurized canopies, doing 4 second delays with slower opening rounds).

    For someone of Brian's experience level, a 4 second delay from the Perrine Bridge with a round canopy would be extremely dangerous and reckless to say the least. Even a solid 3 second delay with a round canopy of Brian’s make would have resulted in relatively low openings for someone of Brian’s experience and would have raised a few eyebrows.

    The delays I (and others) witnessed Brian performing prior to his death were all around 2 seconds, which is about 3.5 seconds from exit to line stretch (I think this is where the misunderstanding lays). 2 seconds is a very common delay at the Perrine (despite many people's claim that they did a "3").

    For Brian’s participation in the multi-way he was asked to do EXACTLY what he had been seen doing before: About a 2 second delay. He was surrounded by the most experienced jumpers and given the best spot to exit with a round (above the center of the river). He was not asked to do anything different in regards to his individual jump. He was responsible for the working order of his own equipment.


    Length of the Bridle:
    No-one (to my knowledge) knew that the length of Brian's bridle was not standard until after the incident.
    As Doug pointed out in a previous post: The people on the multi-way did not teach Brian, they were not responsible for his training, his packing techniques or his gear configuration.

    If I had been aware that Brian was using a bridle of that length I would have voiced my objection to it (simply because it is not adequately tested in the BASE environment) and offered to loan him the spare one I always carry around (I have done this in the past). However in this case, I do not believe it was a contributing factor in the fatality.

    Before people are quick to criticize Brian or his instructors for not checking the length of his bridle, how many of us have actually taken the time to measure our bridles (or the diameter of our pilot chutes)? I own a bridle produced by a major US gear manufacturer that is less than 8’ in length. I used it about 120 times before I actually measured it. Few bridles out there are exactly 9’ in length. Pilot chute sizes are often even worse in variability.

    However we do know that bridles of 5-6 feet in length work well at terminal velocity. This is because the majority of bridles used in skydiving are 5 – 6 feet in length (measured from pin to p/c attachment). The greater the airspeed, the longer the burble that trails behind a human body. By this logic we could surmise that a bridle of less than 5-6 feet in length would clear the burble and work at sub-terminal airspeeds (if it had enough snatch force to open the container). By this summation Brian’s bridle length was adequate.

    A p/c caught in a burble or affected by turbulence wake is usually highly unstable (it bounces around erratically). The video review of Brian’s fatality shows the p/c in tow to be highly stable at bridle stretch. It does not exhibit any of the known characteristics of a p/c being affected by the burble or in the turbulence wake of the jumper.
    The bridle was 6’ 11” long (however when attached to the p/c and shrivel flap by larks head knots the bridle length decreases by about 2 inches).
    As stated before, the industry standard bridle length for BASE jumping equipment is 9’.

    One BASE historian states that the greater bridle length (compared to skydiving bridles) was originally invented to generate adequate snatch force to open pin closed skydiving containers in lower airspeeds, not to clear the burble (which is a common misconception among BASE jumpers). 12’ bridles were originally used and then this was later reduced to 9’ when Velcro rigs became popular (as the shrivel flap component added about 3’ to the system). The industry standard length of 9’ bridles in BASE does not hold any real validity, other than 9’ works and does not cause any known problems. Other bridle lengths have not been adequately tested in the sub-terminal BASE environment to make any conclusions about their suitability or reliability.

    According to various sources, the average human body in a box position at terminal velocity will generate no more than 5 feet of burble. The length of the burble decreases at lower airspeeds. Turbulence wake extends further than the burble however pilot chutes do not have a history of failing to inflate in turbulence wake (as seen in skydiving).

    In summary, although Brian’s bridle was not industry standard in length, there is no evidence to support the fact that this was a factor in the fatality. Once again, the p/c did not exhibit any of the known characteristics of a p/c being affected by the burble or in the turbulence wake of the jumper. The p/c demonstrates characteristics of being towed in clean airflow.

    ---
    Some more random details in regards to the 8-way (I detailed most of the organization of this jump in a previous post).
    The 8-Way was born when a member of the Arizona group (that Brian was with) wanted to organize a big way to take photos. The load was primarily going to be members of the Arizona group. I was asked if I would assist in the planning of it. I replied that I would do so and also stated that I wanted to be a participant. I said I didn't have time to organize who would be on the load (as I was packing and rounding up BASE jumpers is “like herding cats”). When it came time for my role in the multi-way (assigning the line order and delay's) I was presented with 7 people - one of which was Brian. He was the only person from the Arizona group. His rig was packed at this stage. Given his low experience level I asked him to do exactly what he had been doing in his previous jumps. Another low-experienced Arizona jumper approached me to be on the multi-way (this would have made it a 9-way), however because he was jumping a square I asked if he would not participate (I was worried about canopy collisions). Brian was not an issue in this regard because he was jumping a round. None of his instructors or colleges voiced any objection to him being on the load.
    My point is that Brian wanted to participate on the 8-way. He seemed pretty excited and intent on being a participant on it. He performed his role well (nice exit, stable body position and pitched at the right time). If he were alive and willing I’d ask him to be on future multi-ways.
    People have made points that he was “over his head” by being a participant. I disagree. Although being on the 8-way would have placed him under more stress than a solo jump, I don’t think it was more stress than he would have experienced on his first cliff jump (as he was planning on doing several days later). Probably less stress than he would have experienced on his first illegal building jump (if he had ever chosen to go down that path). Also he definitely was not “over his head” as much as someone who is about to attempt to do their first aerial without any prior training (something that is common place at the Perrine). Nevertheless, the decision to participate was soley Brian's and nobody else objected to it.

    For this fatality we do not have enough evidence to conclusively state the reason. Given what we do know, I feel we can safely rule out the pc size / delay combination and place the bridle length in the “highly unlikely” category.

    My full respect and condolences goes to Brian’s family. In my personal experiences loosing a close friend is difficult enough. I can not even imagine the horror of loosing a child. That is something no parent should ever have to experience.


  2. #2
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    Was his p-chute made from z-p or f-111? Don't z-p pilot chutes exert more pull force for there size making them equavilant(sp) to larger sizes of f-111?Say a 38 z-p is = to a 42 f-111?

  3. #3
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    I think the reason most people didn't point out these inaccuracies is that they did not want to engage the grieving father of a deceased BASE jumper in a technical debate.


    Very informative post though, seriously thanks. Just seems weird posted as a response to Mr. Stout.

  4. #4
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Techical details..(long)maybe..

    It seems people at bridge day banned certain things such as bridle length and P.C. size after certain accidents back in the day...... and yes you can point scientific fact and figures at lengths and p.c. sizes.... but we all know the standards.... do you jump a smaller size p.c. off 400 + foot objects???? I'ld say that is not very conservative ... but hey... It's your life after all.
    I think looking back at accident analysis over the year it seems pretty clear that an industry standard bridle, and a P.C. of conservative size has never been blamed for a fatality on the official list.
    I've been to the bridge quite a bit, and have only seen one person in a couple hundred jumps use anything less than a 42".


    Just my 2 cents...


    p.s. I comment only because I'ld hate for someone else to get hurt using the same config. :x :x :x :x :x :x :x


  5. #5

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    Dwain,

    Can you qualify what you mean in phases 2 and 3?

    The point I'm trying to make is that if the p/c fails to inflate at least partially before bridle stretch then no "snatch force" will be generated at all irrespective of the bridle length used. The tensile force generated by the p/c will be purely a function of drag (area, coefficient of discharge and relative wind speed). Changing p/c size in this model would not increase snatch force at normal, sub-terminal airspeeds.


    Cheers,

    Skin

    :+

  6. #6

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    It seems this is the information we were seeking back when Dwain originally asked if he should post his conclusions about the accident some weeks ago but was dissuaded due to 'legal' reasons...

    In the vacuum created by not releasing these details it seems misinformation and conjecture appeared to fill the gap, resulting in releasing this analysis anyway. Perhaps a more timely dissemination of the information would have avoided the conjecture and misinformation Dwain talks about in his post.

    I know from reruns of 'Law and Order' that a full and open divulgence of all facts is usually the best way to proceed, despite worries of possible legal ramifications....

    Dwain was originally dissuaded from posting his conjectures because some of us supposedly 'got our ideas of the legal system from tv', and yet now weeks later it appears... I guess it could have posted then after all...

    ooops... gotta go...'Judging Amy's coming on....

    have a way to go day

    Skypuppy BASE92

  7. #7

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    As someone who has videoed hundreds of tandems and AFF students, I would like to validate the "pilot chute in the burble" issue. If the video shows a stable, towed pilot chute then the pilot chute has had to have cleared the burble. Even at terminal I have seen spring loaded pilot chutes pop and then simply lie on the AFF students back until somthing moves it. Also, I have seen tandem drougues bounce around in the burble for as many as three seconds until the flailing tandem causes the drouge to catch air. Keep in mind that drouge bridles are 10' or longer. A pilot chute gets caught in the burble almost as if it is trapped in an invisible shell. Sometimes pilot chutes bounce around inside this shell and somtimes they just lie dormant until somthing (dipping a shoulder or looking back) disrupts the air flow and catches it in the slipstream.

    If Brian's pilot chute was towed at bridle stretch and stable, it cleared the burble and just did not inflate. Pilot chutes can fail to open (or hesitate) for unknown reasons, and in BASE a towed P/C is fatal. With the number of BASE jumpers ever increasing freak events such as this are statistically likely to happen more often. That is the risk "we" take when we step off the edge.

    Condolences to all who have lost friends and family. Its been a tough year.

    Tree
    "To the extreme I rock the mike like a vandal
    light up the stage and wax a chump like a candle"

    www.TandemBASE.com

  8. #8
    keely
    Guest

    RE: Responsibility

    Dwain is trying to be helpful by posting his opinions. He is under no obligation to post this information here. And he is in no way responsible for anything that happened to Bryan.

    If you choose to BASE jump, you are taking your life into your own hands - your life is YOUR responsibility and no one else's. Every decision you make is YOUR decision - every time you listen to the advice or opinions of others, YOU make a decision whether you want to take this advice or not.

    It seems that we will never know what actually caused Bryan's malfunction, but whether it was the length of the bridle, the size of the pilot chute, the chosen delay, a rubber band on the pilot chute, or any combination of these things or anything else, these were all Bryan's decisions. If any of these things were suggested by someone else, it was ultimately Bryan's decision to use his gear as configured and it was Bryan's decision to go on that load and make that jump.

    If you cannot accept this kind of responsibility then you should not be BASE jumping, or even skydiving for that matter.

    It sounds to me like all of you who keep trying to place the blame on Dwain or Doug just have some kind of personal issue with these guys and it is pretty damn sick of you to be using the death of someone else to make yourself feel righteous.

    And for the record, I do not personally know Dwain or Doug so I am not just trying to defend friends. I am simply stating the obvious which any BASE jumper should know - YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR YOURSELF WHEN YOU CHOOSE TO BASE JUMP!

    And for Mr. Stout, I am very sorry about the loss of your son. I have lost a couple of friends myself recently and I too can only imagine how horrible the loss of a child could be. I am also sorry to see that you have had to deal with the ugliness that has taken place on this board as a result of certain others' personal issues that have nothing to do with Bryan. I never had the pleasure of meeting Bryan myself, but I am still saddened by the loss of someone who was obviously very loved.

    Sincerely,
    Keely Mires

  9. #9

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    Skin,

    There can be some overlap between the phases.

    In phase 2, I am referring to the time period between when the p/c is released from your hand to it being above you at bridle stretch.
    In phase 3, I am referring to the time period between when the p/c is full deflated to being fully inflated.

    Often the p/c can become partially inflated before bridle stretch but it never becomes fully inflated until after bridle stretch.

    When you release the p/c in phase 1 it is traveling at the same downward airspeed as your body (unless you throw the p/c upwards). Wind resistance then causes the p/c to decelerate until it meets bridle stretch. Upon bridle stretch there will be a snatch force generated as the p/c is rapidly accelerated back towards the speed of your body.
    The more partial inflation the p/c has the greater the snatch force will be.
    The longer the bridle, the more time the p/c has to decelerate and thus the more snatch force will be generated (provided some partial p/c inflation has taken place).

    Snatch force is only relevant to opening a tightly closed pin container. The length of pull required to open a velcro container is too long a time period for the initial snatch force to be off any real effect.

    This is all theory though - it has never really been adequately tested. In the world of velcro closed rigs (and this fatality) it's not a significant factor. It more relates back to the day when tightly closed skydiving rigs were used in short delay BASE jumps.

    As a side note, prior to Velcro rigs it was common for people to do short delays with a pull-out skydiving rigs and skydiving pilot chutes (36" F111 or smaller). Pull-out skydiving rigs often have a bridle length of 4 feet. (I have some experience BASE jumping this exact system with short delays).


    Some quotes from Mark Hewitt:

    "I made my 1st Base jump with a 4' bridal, with a curved pin tied in, which made it a little shorter than that, and with a 30" F111 P/C, and I threw at 2.5, and was open by 4 seconds."

    "A low airspeed burble doesn't extend very far off of your back, as opposed to at 120mph"

    "Pilot chutes do malfunction"


  10. #10

    RE: Techical details....(long)

    Gotcha. Thanks Dwain. Lookin' forward to our first multiway. If it all goes wrong I can blame you, right?

    Skin

    :+

  11. #11
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Technical Mumbo Jumbo

    I have a question that I think needs to be addressed.

    I keep reading things about Brian's father or his family pursuing legal action. Since this information couldn't have possibly come from any of Brian's family. I would like to know where this rumor is coming from.

    There have been a lot of actions attributed to Brian's family that are pure fantasy. Not once has anyone contacted any of us to verify, and at least one member of your board has had my email address since shortly after Brian's death.

    I think it is unconscionable that these rumors and half truths have been spread to the rest of the base community.

    If anyone wants this kind of information they should be talking to Brian's family and not
    paying attention to uninformed rumor.

    Thank you,
    Cheryl Stout, Brian's mother

  12. #12
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Two answers

    I know exactly what was meant. However, this is the kind of thing that I referred to in an earlier post.

    People are so busy trying to be cute that they completely miss the point, steer people away from the subject and show they are more concerned with showing off than making any positive contribution.

    I think if you have something to say, you should say what you mean.

    Cheryl Stout

  13. #13
    guest
    Guest

    PLUR

    >People are so busy trying to be cute that they
    >completely miss the point, steer people away
    >from the subject and show they are more
    >concerned with showing off than making any
    >positive contribution.
    >
    >I think if you have something to say, you should
    >say what you mean.
    >
    >Cheryl Stout


    I think people are indeed trying to say what they mean, but unfortunately, many good points are getting lost in the shuffle. I don't think that anyone is trying to "show off" per se (except for maybe Robin's resume), but the tech discussions are definately productive and have sound foundations in the world of parachuting.

    Believe it or not Mrs. Stout, there are many of us out here that feel for you, sincerely and deeply. It has been a difficult year of loss in our sport, and there have been many affected families and friends as a result of the astounding number of fatalities. The nature of our sport is inherently dangerous, which we all acknowledge, and choosing to participate in this, and any other so-called "extreme" sports, is unequivocally saying that we accept the accompanying risks. The rewards can be great and the price can be high.

    There is plenty of blame to go around in this world. If we tried hard enough, we could find a bit of fault in someone other than the jumper in each and every one of the fatalities this year. I don't know how productive that would be, but it is certainly not productive or justified to fry a few select individuals based on impartial and severely skewed personal grudges (and this comment is not aimed at you, Mrs. Stout).

    I hope that you are hanging in there and not becoming too disillusioned by the BASE jumping community. There are many fine people around who are thinking about you and your family, and who will not forget your son's life. In my experience, an open mind and an open heart have done wonders during periods of painful grieving. And this is not lip service or an attempt to be "cute" or steer people away from any subject, this are just comments from someone who has thought a lot about you and the loss you are suffering.



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