Should High Rise Workers and Residents be Equipped with Parachutes and Trained to Use Them in Emergencies?

[skydvr18]

Um, yes, I do think people are going to equate using emergency escape parachutes to the sport of BASE jumping. You're leaving an object above the ground with hopes of surviving by means of a parachute. One week, a bunch of people die trying to escape a fire by parachuting. The next week, someone makes a BASE jump from an illegal object...that's gotta be pretty dangerous, a bunch of people just died jumping off of a building with parachutes last week!! Tougher penalties. Example...how much does the general public know about skydiving? Not very much...pretty much what they see on the news and these tv shows that show nothing but accidents. So what do I get asked all of the time by whuffos? "Do you ever jump out with one of those snowboards? Has your parachute ever malfunctioned? How many accidents have you had?" When let's face it, these are rarities in skydiving...which is why they are shown on tv in the first place. How much coverage does BASE jumping get? Not that much. But when people start parachuting from burning buildings and bouncing, there'll be plenty...and the public's outlook will be "that's dangerous!!" And if 90% use the rigs and don't put them on incorrectly, I can assure you 90% aren't going to live. And don't start attacking me because you think I'm trying to keep something from coming between me and BASE jumping...I just think it's a sh*tty idea, and an unrealistic one at that. Are we going to put individual parachute rigs in all planes in the event a plane is going to crash, so all of the passengers can bail out instead of a certain death? No...pretty unrealistic, isn't it? So why would I support something that I don't think will work, something that's unrealistic, and something that's gonna make BASE jumping harder for me, when I know there are better ideas out there? Just something else to think about.

Blue Skies,
Josh

[Douva]

If the idea is so unfeasible, how is it going to hurt BASE jumping? Somebody actually has to leap from a burning building with a parachute before it can have any affect on BASE jumping. If that happens, then it was feasible, and the miniscule chance that it might have some minor adverse affect on BASE jumping is inconsequential. If it's really unfeasible and nobody ever gets the chance to jump from a burning building with a parachute, it will have no affect on BASE jumping, either positive or negative, and should therefore be of no concern to you.

--Douva

PS. I'm not suggesting some sort of "lifeboat law" that makes escape parachutes mandatory for all skyscrapers--I'm just saying it should be an option.


>Um, yes, I do think people are going to equate
>using emergency escape parachutes to the sport
>of BASE jumping. You're leaving an object above
>the ground with hopes of surviving by means of a
>parachute. One week, a bunch of people die
>trying to escape a fire by parachuting. The
>next week, someone makes a BASE jump from an
>illegal object...that's gotta be pretty
>dangerous, a bunch of people just died jumping
>off of a building with parachutes last week!!
>Tougher penalties. Example...how much does the
>general public know about skydiving? Not very
>much...pretty much what they see on the news and
>these tv shows that show nothing but accidents.
>So what do I get asked all of the time by
>whuffos? "Do you ever jump out with one of
>those snowboards? Has your parachute ever
>malfunctioned? How many accidents have you
>had?" When let's face it, these are rarities in
>skydiving...which is why they are shown on tv in
>the first place. How much coverage does BASE
>jumping get? Not that much. But when people
>start parachuting from burning buildings and
>bouncing, there'll be plenty...and the public's
>outlook will be "that's dangerous!!" And if 90%
>use the rigs and don't put them on incorrectly,
>I can assure you 90% aren't going to live. And
>don't start attacking me because you think I'm
>trying to keep something from coming between me
>and BASE jumping...I just think it's a sh*tty
>idea, and an unrealistic one at that. Are we
>going to put individual parachute rigs in all
>planes in the event a plane is going to crash,
>so all of the passengers can bail out instead of
>a certain death? No...pretty unrealistic, isn't
>it? So why would I support something that I
>don't think will work, something that's
>unrealistic, and something that's gonna make
>BASE jumping harder for me, when I know there
>are better ideas out there? Just something else
>to think about.
>
>Blue Skies,
>Josh

[guest]

If we want to give the people in the building parachutes we should use the same logic to give those on the planes rigs also. I mean saving even one life is a great thing but this is the same as saying lets put emergency parachutes on the airlines. Other wise this whole idea is just not practical.
1) How often does this happen? Once you get over the feeling of shock and disbelief and think about it rationally, this is a rare, very rare occurence.
2)Who pays? Employers(unless made to by OSHA) will not provide them. Wait one year and most people won't because they'll be past the shock of this event and think it won't happen again.

About the whole debate on giving BASE a bad image, I really don't care what kind of image we and our sport has because I don't care what other people think of us or our sport we all do it for ourselves so let them think what they want. They can think we're all a bunch of lunatics but as long as we're living by our values who gives a rats ass about their opinions. I mean our sport becoming more mainstream and acceptable would be nice to gain better access but that could be a double edged sword. So lets try solving the problem by figuring out why some jackasses decided to kill a few thousand people and we want need emergency parachutes. But my recomendation would be rounds on s/l sitting by the windows, or ejection seats
Cya
:P

[Douva]

Sorry to keep harping on this, but I'd like to make one more point. You seem to be under the misconception that most people think parachuting (in any form) is relatively safe. On the contrary, most people think that parachuting (in any form) is about as dangerous as any activity gets. I don't think the death of someone jumping from a building with an escape parachute would come as any big shock to the general public, nor do I believe the public would think that victim was any worse off than if they had died jumping without a chute or been burned alive in the building. If there were any survivors, I'm sure THEY, and not the victims, would be the focus of the media's attention. If there were no survivors, the program would almost certainly be scrapped, but I don't think anybody would suddenly awaken to the startling conclusion that--surprise, surprise--jumping from a building with a parachute is dangerous. Heck, if it wasn't dangerous, they'd offer it as an attraction at theme parks. And, again, I seriously doubt anyone would put enough thought into the risks involved to decide that not only aren't escape parachutes a good idea, but we also need stricter BASE jumping restrictions. And, again, I think the minute chance of further restrictions being placed on an already illegal activity, despite how you or any of the rest of us may feel about that activity, is a very selfish argument against a potentialy lifesaving device.

--Douva
lewdouva@aol.com


>Um, yes, I do think people are going to equate
>using emergency escape parachutes to the sport
>of BASE jumping. You're leaving an object above
>the ground with hopes of surviving by means of a
>parachute. One week, a bunch of people die
>trying to escape a fire by parachuting. The
>next week, someone makes a BASE jump from an
>illegal object...that's gotta be pretty
>dangerous, a bunch of people just died jumping
>off of a building with parachutes last week!!
>Tougher penalties. Example...how much does the
>general public know about skydiving? Not very
>much...pretty much what they see on the news and
>these tv shows that show nothing but accidents.
>So what do I get asked all of the time by
>whuffos? "Do you ever jump out with one of
>those snowboards? Has your parachute ever
>malfunctioned? How many accidents have you
>had?" When let's face it, these are rarities in
>skydiving...which is why they are shown on tv in
>the first place. How much coverage does BASE
>jumping get? Not that much. But when people
>start parachuting from burning buildings and
>bouncing, there'll be plenty...and the public's
>outlook will be "that's dangerous!!" And if 90%
>use the rigs and don't put them on incorrectly,
>I can assure you 90% aren't going to live. And
>don't start attacking me because you think I'm
>trying to keep something from coming between me
>and BASE jumping...I just think it's a sh*tty
>idea, and an unrealistic one at that. Are we
>going to put individual parachute rigs in all
>planes in the event a plane is going to crash,
>so all of the passengers can bail out instead of
>a certain death? No...pretty unrealistic, isn't
>it? So why would I support something that I
>don't think will work, something that's
>unrealistic, and something that's gonna make
>BASE jumping harder for me, when I know there
>are better ideas out there? Just something else
>to think about.
>
>Blue Skies,
>Josh

[skydvr18]

Amen, well said!! FINALLY somebody else is doing some rational thinking here. C-ya!!

Blue Skies,
Josh

[skydvr18]

No...if you read what whuffos ask me all of the time, you'll know that I'm very well aware that the public views skydiving and BASE jumping as very dangerous sports. I think that's quite obvious. My point is that the general public knows very little about the sports...pretty much what they see on tv. Therefore, their beliefs are based on the thought of the sport..."Jumping out of a plane or off of a building is crazy!! It's gotta be dangerous." And, what they see on Real TV, When Good Times Go Bad, and You've Gotta See This. When they see high-rise workers bouncing after jumping from a building to escape a fire, yes, it will be viewed as even more dangerous.

Read the post below...it makes some very good points. Everybody is just in shock right now. When people started shooting up schools, tougher security was enforced. When deaths by means of guns started going up, people wanted to outlaw guns. And I'm sure after major plane crashes, people whined on skydiving message boards to surrender their gear to the airlines. But let's face it...major tragedies in high-rise buildings don't happen very often. Just let the shock wear off, and people will quit worrying. I'm not gonna keep "harping" on this, because people are finally posting some stuff on real BASE jumping. This is very simple...the idea is unrealistic, it's not needed, and it's not going to happen.

And if you think I'm selfish because I'm not supporting an idea because it's unrealistic and not needed, and it's something that would coincidently affect the sport of BASE jumping, then you've got a few things to work on. Would outlawing guns save a few lives? Probably, but I'm not gonna give up my guns. When tougher security was enforced at schools to save lives, and my rights were violated by having my bags searched, locker searched, and drug dogs sniffing me all of the time, you bet I through a fit. But I'm not selfish because I don't support this idea. Keep "harping" all you want...I'm gonna stick to the real BASE messages.

[guest]

I am not a base jumper, but have skydived before.

The same thoughts came across my mind when I saw the video images of people jumping out of the WTC. . . too bad they did not have parachutes

Since the type of parachute required to jump is contingent upon factors such as altitude, is there such thing as a "basic" parachute available out there that would be suitable for emergency chuting for building as high as the WTC and can still be safely used for lower hi-rise buildings of 60, 40 or 20 floors?

If anyone knows of such a parachute, please share what you know:
1) Which manufacturer makes it.
2) What are the specifications for the basic chute (size of chute needed, type of container needed, etc)
3) How much do you estimate it would cost for me to get the basic gear needed for emergency chuting (not including the lessons, just the emergency chute - no helmet)

I am clueless when it comes to the req'd equipment needed for base jumping, so any information you could provide would be helpful.

:P

[guest]

Sorry for my ignorance, but if I wanted to put together a packed BASE rig, what would I need?

How high would I have to be to make sure so that there is enough wind resistance for the chute to open?

[imported_Tom Aiello]

Hi George:

>Sorry for my ignorance, but if I wanted to put
>together a packed BASE rig, what would I need?

You would need an experienced BASE jumper, preferably one who was a qualified rigger. Please DO NOT attempt to put together a rig yourself, as you will undoubtedly miss something, and merely create a deathtrap in a backpack.


>How high would I have to be to make sure so that
>there is enough wind resistance for the chute to
>open?

It depends completely upon the parachute setup. See my point above, and note that a BASE rig set up for a jump from 1000' (like the World Trade Center's roof) would be inappropriate for a jump from 400' (i.e. probably would not open in time).

Trying to put together an emergency parachute system without the appropriate experience makes about as much sense as designing your own boat for a transcontinental trip--it's easier, faster, cheaper and safer to hire someone to do it for you.



--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[imported_Tom Aiello]

>Is there such thing as a "basic" parachute that would be suitable for emergency chuting for buildings as high as the WTC and can still be safely used for lower hi-rise buildings of 60, 40 or 20 floors?

This is a complex question, and the answer is open to much debate. Here is my opinion (please take it with a grain of salt).

There is such a thing as a "basic" emergency parachute. It is used by pilots (who have no jump training) for bailing out of aircraft. Unfortunately it is intended for use at relatively high altitudes, and probably would not open in time for a jump from the 20th floor.

A better option might be to re-configure such a parachute for use as a "building escape rig," modifying it to open faster. Unfortunately, opening fast enough to survive a jump from the 20th floor would mean opening very high when jumping from the highest buildings.

The problem with such a high opening is that other factors might damage the parachute or injure or kill the jumper before they reached the ground. For example, wind might blow the parachute back into the building, or, as has been noted above, the heat from a potential fire might burn or melt the parachute while the jumper passed by.

So, in my opinion, the safest option would be to seek the assistance of an experienced jumper, who would need to provide, at a minimum:

1) An evaluation of the office you intend to escape from, to determine primary and alternate exit points and landing areas.

2) Proper configuration and packing of the parachute system.

3) Basic training in exit stability.

4) Basic training in a parachute landing fall (PLF).

5) Basic training in the steering and control of the (round) parachute.

To my knowledge, no one currently offers such services. However, I am certain that various gear manufacturers would be happy to provide the necessary consulting, instruction and equipment. I do not have any idea what their prices would be for these thing.






>If anyone knows of such a parachute, please share what you know:

As I noted above, to my knowledge a suitable system is not currently available stock, but would require experienced help to assemble.

>1) Which manufacturer makes it.

No one currently makes my ideal "building escape rig". However, manufacturers who I know personally to be qualified to do so include Basic Research, of Perris, California (www.basicresearch.com) and Consolidated Rigging, of Rocklin, California (www.crmojo.com). Other manufacturers who I do not personally know include Vertigo BASE Outfitters of Moab, Utah (www.vertigobase.com). I would not recommend purchasing such equipment or services from a skydiving gear manufacturer (such as Precision Aerodynamics or Performance Designs), since the BASE manufacturers have far more experience with parachuting in the fixed object environment.

2) What are the specifications for the basic chute (size of chute needed, type of container needed, etc)

I would recommend the largest round canopy you could find. I personally have had good luck using Phantom skydiving reserves for BASE, but I am sure others would also be suitable. I would not recommend one of the currently manufactured round BASE canopies, as they are intended for water jumps, and are probably too small to land you safely on solid ground. For a non-jumper, bigger is better (I'd say a minimum of 26', depending on your body weight).

I would recommend putting the canopy into a velcro container (for reliability), and configuring it properly (including pre-arranged static attachment points for low buildings). Obviously, this will require the help of an experienced jumper.


>3) How much do you estimate it would cost for me
>to get the basic gear needed for emergency
>chuting (not including the lessons, just the
>emergency chute - no helmet)

I think it would be irresponsible to sell you just the gear, with no instruction.

Total cost of the gear outlined above should run somewhere under $1000 (at a guess, $500-$600 for the container, and $200-$400 for the parachute itself).

I would guess that the necessary instruction (which I think could be had in one intensive day of well organized training) would cost around $500-$1000.

So, total cost for the system and minimum safety instruction would probably run around $1500-$2000.

>I am clueless when it comes to the req'd
>equipment needed for base jumping, so any
>information you could provide would be helpful.

An important point: AN ESCAPE PARACUTE WILL NOT GUARANTEE SAFETY. MY BEST GUESS IS THAT 15-25% OF USERS WILL BE KILLED PARACHUTING, AND THAT 50% WILL SUFFER INJURIES REQUIRING MEDICAL TREATMENT.


I hope I've helped. Post again, or send me an email if I can answer any other questions.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[guest]

This is a great innovation from Precision Aerodynamics and should be widely spread to everyone who is in a potencially dangerous environment - high altitude buildings.
Simply to use, life saving device....and it could also be fun!