Jump the Snake .com

[guest]

Hi, We were just wondering why no body has been calling us about base jumping pickups in Twin Falls. We know Bert & Don are good guys and do a good job, but it is suprising that not 1 person has called us in over a 2 months since we started offering a competive service. Did we do somthing to offend the base jumping community? We think we have always been helpful and even hauled some foks for no chatge in the past. We are a good outfit also and would appreciate the opportunity to be of service to any interested jumpers. Would anyone be willing to lend some insight into this, or give us a word of advice what we are doing wrong/right.
I would think you folks would want to have all the postive support you can get in the area, and we have always been supportive of the sport and keeping the bridge open for adventure. But is is getting a little stange that this situation is developing this way... Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated, either in this public format or by personal contact.
Respectfully,
Olin Gardner
Owner-Operator
Idaho Guide Service Inc
and jumpthesnake.com

[guest]

ya know, these folks do raise a good point, and FYI i was one of the most vocal B&D supporters in the past on this board.

I have always figured that B&D were our only supporters in the community, but having a business run by locals that is supported ONLY by our dollars could result in ANOTHER voice of support in the community.

However.....

my gut feeling is that if BASE people started using those jump the snake people, B&D would fold their BASE tents and focus more on family and fishing tours. Leaving us with one supporter in the community (JTS), which is where we are at now. So we either have JTS or B&D, and since B&D are established, we use them. Considering all the support they have given us, including the odd free ride, and besides just being cool people all around, it would suck to use a competitor after all that.

I think the reason nobody is calling you, is for the same reason, they feel loyal to B&D, and don't want to F' em. Also, while I know very little about your operation, I like the low profile-ness of B&D. I see your ads on the Board and I imagine shuttle vans and boats and banners that scream, "Jump the Snake!". While I enjoy the legality immensely, I do not feel we should advertise our presence and increase our profile on the bridge. The key to keeping the site legal in the future will be to keep it low profile, at least as low profile as it can be with people jumping off a bridge in daylight.


Anybody else got any thoughts?

I have to say though, if you just showed up out there when jumping was going on, and your deals were good enough, you would get business. However, not from me, I'm sticking with B&D 'cause I like 'em.

[Donk]

I agree with the loyalty to Burt and Don. Additionally, something that makes using JTS more difficult is the sent of animosity between JTS and BD. This makes it very difficult for a BASE jumper to choose the new player over a “friend” who has been there for you for years.

Perhaps if there was some sense of cooperation or “partnering” between JTS and BD then more people would consider using JTS without fear of hurting the feelings or being disloyal to BD. There are times when BD can’t make a load and if you had a better working relationship with them you could get your start by picking up the loads that BD can’t make and eventually, over years (not months) like BD did, then you too would have loyal customers.

Problem scenario:

A BASE jumper schedules JTS for a day and typical with any trip to TF there will likely be several other jumpers there as well who scheduled BD…how uncomfortable do you think that lone jumper(s) would feel to have to make a decision about which boat to get on? We have a tremendous amount of respect for all folks who operate on the river and I am sure the time will come when your service is running jumpers as much as BD but it is your responsibility to make the customer comfortable with the competitive situation. Try building a friendship with BD and let us now that you have a friendly competitive relationship with them. E.g. someone calls BD and if they cannot make the load BD calls JTS or refers the caller to you.

My first call is always to BD but if they cannot make it then the door is open to you provided I am sure it is not at BD's expense (politically speaking). Please be patient and remember the BASE community is small and people who are loyal to us deserve our loyalty in exchange. I for one defiantly appreciate any TF area business support and I am sure there is a way for BD and JTS to share the river and BASE loads cooperatively together. If your start is in a secondary capacity then it is just that…a start.

Donk out.

[guest]

Have not been able to make it to Twin Falls yet this year. When I do go, I'll stick to the fairest price on transportation, and my feet are FREE! You have to be on the river all the time. That is Dirt and Bonds strajedy. Olin will have to hang out @ the packing park all day like them other river rats. I ain't never called no boat. If it's there, and I have a buck or SEVEN, I ride. If not, the hike is 1/4 hour.

[guest]

I too have no loyalty to what I ride on. I am money driven and make no hesitation on a newer cheaper ride. Prices are out of hand anyway.

[guest]

Jump day.
Park at the top, jump, hike to top, pack, jump, hike to top, pack, jump, hike to top, pack, jump, hike to top.
Go over to ##### for lunch and beers.
Pack (all shitty), jump, get slammed. Hike to top. Back hurts.
Go over to ##### for beers.
Pack, jump, hike to top, pack, jump, hike to top.
Go over to ##### for beers.
Sleep.

Olin, if you want riders, park your boat under the bridge.
They will come, some will want rides.
Charge less than your competitor.
Don't wait for a call,
just show up.

After a few jumpers have tried your service, and your fair price on a boat and shuttle ride, and they tell they cheap ass friends, word gets around, then you be jammin'.

[crispy]

you said it yourself... Bert and Don are good guys. Not only that, but They were there from the beginning and had enough smarts to befriend us and capitalize on our business. And now, guess what? They're our FRIENDS. so why shouldn't we give our friends the business? I'm sure you're a nice guy, but They've invested a lot more time and faith in us. How many times have you been out to the bridge drumming up business?
Think about it.

[guest]

Do what the cigarette manufacturers do and offer your product (service) at a vastly reduced price 'til you get 'em hooked. Then raise your rates to whatever price the market will bear.

Not more than 6 months ago, the same weenies who won't give you the time of day were bitching like little children about the $5-$7/trip they had to pay to bert and don, as well as complaining that we had all bought bert and don a new boat with the money we've paid them. My guess is you haven't offered low enough pricing to get the loyals to jump ship. They might seem loyal, but you just haven't hit the price threshold to get them to come around.

I like Bert and Don immensely. Bert was nice enough to have allowed a fello jumper and me to use his shop to spray-paint a big banner for a marriage proposal last year. I'm sure there is still some red overspray in his shop. B&D have provided benefits that went beyond just a 'ride': local lobby at the commission mtgs as an example, political pressure here and there. Plus, as others have mentioned, they've been there all along pretty much.

I doubt there are many other markets like this one. Where else would participants want to keep things quiet? keep things low key? A rarety. Furthermore, there just aren't that many of us, and we're all pretty loyal to each other - even if we bitch and yell at each other we'll stand by another base jumper's side just 'cause they're a base jumper. Sure the sport is growing, but are there enough jumpers at TF to support two boat/pickup operations? I don't know.

What this will ultimately boil down to is this (I'm speaking for myself, here): market price. Let's face it, friends is friends, but business is business. If you're offering an equal or better service at a lower price than your competition, you'll get business. It's just going to take a while for you to pierce the 'friendship veil'.

Good luck; the market competition bodes well for BASE jumpers' wallets.

Sincerely,
Gardner
Atlanta, Ga

p.s. my mom's maiden name was Gardner - that's where my middle name came from... the one I use. Momma was born and raised in appalachia. Got any relevants there?

[guest]

I'll bet that there are a lot of people really wanting to help support your company also ( including myself) but I don't want to be seen as the first one to jump ship as a traitor. people are waiting for someone to go first and then they wont look like the bad guy. hope that makes a little sense because it sounds really stupid when I read it.
I thought about alternating days between your company and b&d just to be fare to both, but haven't decided yet.
good luck.

[guest]

As soon as I see Olin's boat, I'll be the first to jump on.
Free enterprise, best price wins. Screw the competition!
Where do Dirt and Bond buy their gas?
From their buddy who's had the station on the corner for years,
or the new station up the road where gas is 10 cents a gallon cheaper?
There is no loyalty when money is concerned.
Saving a buck is not an act of traitorism, is it?

[Surber]

Mr. Gardner

I have no interest in using your service for several reasons.

1) B&D have been very good to us over the years, long before it was as financially rewarding as it may be now.
2) B&D were an instrumental part of the concept that helped turn the Perrine into a jumping Mecca.
3) B&D have built their services around us and invested years of their lives doing so.

JTS has done none of this, and so it is not strange that “this situation is developing this way.” You are an intruder demanding a seat at the family table. Compared to B&D, JTS has no right to even ask for our business. You have done nothing to help or promote us during the years it took to create the kind of jump volume we currently enjoy. JTS had the appropriate license to be on the river during all the formative years but chose not to become involved. After letting B&D develop a market that they have solidly earned by their own hard work, JTS now sees that a seasonal business exists. This is the time when the ORIGINAL entrepreneurs should reap the rewards of their investments of time, energy, and emotion. It is an offense to most of us that you have tried to dilute the business of good men who earned their present status by building something original. We are also offended by the legal hassling instituted by JTS against B&D. BASE jumpers are not big fans of people who oppress others with the legal system. The notion that you could make B&D miserable one day and win my $7 the next illuminates the monstrous gulf between your value system and mine.

You asked if you have done something to offend and my best answer is YES. Your very existence offends. The shameless way you litter all the hotels with your drivel offends. Commandeering a public picnic table all day to service the vanities of your alleged business offends. Threatening our friends offends. Trying to sacrifice B&D on the alter of your own greed offends. Dealing with us through an insulating layer of “hip youngsters” offends. Adding tension within our community as we discuss your invasion offends. And to answer your final question, yes, we do need and appreciate all the support we can get in the community of Twin Falls. But our needs do not go as far as you imply. Specifically, we are not willing to sell our loyalty, dignity and future business to RTS to save a few bucks. Money is nothing compared to the feeling that comes from building adventures with your friends and supporting them in the future.

If we ignore the odious legal posturing of RTS, you guys may not be bad people. But, you are too late to ask for our friendship and business. As a community, we wish you no ill will. But we do ask that you not intrude on our relationship with B&D. In the beginning when you were ignoring us, B&D were building something. Even in the most ruthless capitalistic analysis, we would be fools to turn away from a business which caters to our requirements and loyally supports our sport. RTS hasn’t a chance of replacing the kind of relationship we have with B&D by offering an inferior product served up by people who care more about our money than learning our names. A fitting Midwestern colloquialism is fitting for you guys – “Don’t go away mad, just go away.”

[guest]

Legal hassling instituted by JTS against B&D?
Threatening our friends?
dealings through hip youngsters?

Perhaps I was too quick to post my thoughts on lift competition at the perrine; rather, I should have kept my mouth shut and watched what developed. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been to Perrine as much as I'd have liked. Hell, I haven't been there as much as I wouldn't have liked. Anyway, what I'm really getting at is this: educate me. What is going on between B&D and JTS apart from the 'been there all along' and the 'I'm just breaking into the scene' situation? You made reference to some legal squabbles. What's with that? If there is something beyond just a little competition between businesses, what is it?

While I'm waiting for your response I'll gnaw on my foot just a little.

Gardner

[guest]

Hello again, just had a chance to check back on my previous post/questions. Thanks to everyone who replied back w/ comments and advice. Did not mean to cause a stir. We have been in business as whitewater outfitters since the 70's. We were the 1st outfitter to be licensed on this section of the Snake River in 1976. We ran the 1st raft trips upstream on the MURTAUGH section of the Snake. Class 4 & 5 in the late 70's. We love offering 2-5 days Trips on the Salmon River in Riggins also. My wife and I and 3 kids run a family business with some sucess we think. I do not have any problems with Bert & Don. They are legal outfitters the same as I. We do not have any legal run-ins or anything of the type happening between us. I send them customers every week. We have worked togather in the past, every year. I use thier boats and staff and they use mine. Some one must be getting some mis-information or is just plain uninformed. But regardless this whole situation is unpleasnat to us, so we are pulling our jumpthesnakesite and service. Good luck to all. We will be on the river if any one needs a hand.
Thanks,
Olin

[guest]

Dude, BASE jumpers are total assholes, you are better off without us.

[guest]

How the hell can you say that Jump the snake .com is a intruder when you come to our town and think you own it dead wrong dumb ass. you are the intruder in our town not some one who has lived in this town all there lives, do not think you can make freinds in this town so easly, D&B are nice guys and the town of twin loves them every much and they also love Olin very much so maybe you should watch what yo say about other people unless you no them. to me you are a hypocrite. so may be you should keep your big mouth shut, and may be get the right info on what is going on in Twin. you should go a way and go way mad. do not take this out on olin he has nothing to do with what i have to say to you. I do not like people like you. who think they no every thing about every thing.

Twin Falls