Ethics of Lichtle and DiCola ?

[Yuri]

Yo !

After reading the first page of this month's Skydiving magazine: what do you think about an outrageous site advertisements by these guys ?

One of the pictures shows Jim Surber using a regular velcro rig with a wingsuit. This is worse than base jumping a bungee PC (and about as stupid).

bsbd!

Yuri.

P.S. 20 to 35 sec at Arco is really pathetic ;-)

[Donk]

Yo Yuri,

I’d say Ki$$ my a$$...but given your stature in the sport allow me to say "slurp my anus."

I’m not sure what you are even trying to say in the first paragraph but none of the sites referenced in the article are a "secret" and we had full cooperation of local authorities.

As far as your criticism of Surber goes I would think (being the self-proclaimed master of a skill set) you would be wise enough to use constructive criticism not insults and humiliation. (Though Surber's was not but I’ll let him explain)

Also, insulting safe wing-suit flights is probably a very bad idea. I’d rather see more people taking conservative wing suit flights and NOT Dieing trying to chase your ego.

I realize you have a special gift and probably one of the best in world but did you have to get special training to become such an a$$.

Hugs and Kisses, :*

Donk a.k.a DiCola
donk@kc.rr.com

[Gabriel]

I don´t think doing a short delay in a wing suit is pathetic , as long as you feel safe and you have fun who cares about how many seconds you did , some people don´t have the ability or type of body to do more than 40 sec delays in wingsuit jumps and that doesn´t make them pathetic . Besides the way I see it Base jumping is not a competition .

Gabriel

[Tree]

Ahhh, like music to my ears. Something interesting on the Board. Can't we all just get along? NO! Lets fight like cat's and dogs and keep things interesting.


Tree :D

[base428]

Well said, Gabriel.

While I may be tall, I've got a lot of weight that comes along with it and pulling a +35 sec delay from <insert super secret legal Italian cliff here> is probably beyond the laws of physics with my old Birdman.

------------
Jason Bell (BASE428)
Email: jbell@vertical-visions.com
Web: www.vertical-visions.com or www.bridgeday.info

[Surber]

Yuri !

I thought you were my pal. Just to set the record straight, I was not wearing a "regular velcro rig". It is a custom rig from ParaTech Rigging with four articulation points (more than you had) to eliminate any velcro peel from body movement. In addition, it has extremely aggressive velcro that is also available from ParaTech. The entire rig was built to withstand terminal conditions. I tested the rig in a variety of configurations going in and out of terminal, and it always worked perfectly. You esentially called me unsafe and stupid for building a custom rig to meet my needs. I'm happy with the rig, and my "stupid" decisions, and have never had a premature deployment. I know you can not say the same - even though you are implying pin rigs are categorically safer.

You are a great flyer and are much better suited to inspiring us than dissing us.

Jim Surber
S#1
(Stupid BASE)

[Yuri]

Yo !

I'm glad you liked the form ;-) Too bad you don't get the substance.

>I’m not sure what you are even trying to say in
>the first paragraph but none of the sites referenced
>in the article are a "secret" and we had full
>cooperation of local authorities.

They are not a secret, however Italians have specifically asked not to advertise their sites (that cliff on the lake in particular). Especially not on the front page to the entire skydiving community. Switzerland had plenty of tension as well... i'm sure they appreciate the publicity. Like the subject said, it's about ethics. You would be chewed up and your post removed on the board - why do you think it's any better in Skydiving magazine ?

As for constructive criticism, the message is very clear - do not mix velcro rigs and wingsuits. It's common sense and it's been said politely thousands of times. Unfortunately people still don't get it. Maybe the rough way to explain it will help to prevent a fatality. I doubt Jim is humilated, though ;-)

>Also, insulting safe wing-suit flights is probably a very bad idea.

One of the factors that allows you to survive a velcro rig is a lousy wingsuit flight. In that regard, yes, it's safer to fly bad. Anyway, this line was a pure insult indeed - in response to numerous "flying their suits to the limit, getting 30 seconds and 5 or 10sec canopy rides" (safe?) flights in the article. I'm pissed off and far from being politically correct.

Let's concentrate on the subject. I hope Europeans will correct me here.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[Donk]

"Constructive criticism" noted.

I'm not sure where you got the 5 - 10 second canopy rides from (possibly a misquote). Only one of the canopy flights was shorter than the wing suit flight itself. The tone of your original post read like taking a conservative delay on a wing suite was weak. So you message of safety (Velcro) and delay contradicted each other. You clarification is more coherent and your concern better understood.

The issue of "American" behavior in Europe has been beat to death in this forum. Why stir that up again? And considering that “Those sites in Italy and Switzerland” have been the focus of several American and European articles and TV shows, I hardly think an article in Skydiving (distribution under 5000) is a threat, but your concern is noted and will be taken into future consideration.

Without the sarcasm, your opinion on these issues is greatly respected and appreciated but challenging the ethics of a person you don't know or insulting your peers who admire your accomplishments will likely result conflict.

I'd be happy take this up off line. donk@kc.rr.com

Peace,

Donk out.

[Yuri]

Yo !

Jim, i would like to apologize to you for the "stupid" part. You put a lot of efforts and thoughts into the rig, and i highly respect that. Sorry again - i am pissed about a different thing, and the picture is misleading.

I strongly disagree with the "safe" part, however. The reason i'm so vocal is precisely because i had 2 premature container openings while flying wingsuits. They were on pin rigs indeed, with a design that has worked great at terminal and on slower wingsuit flights. It has tought us a lot about the safety margins of the suits and prompted major changes in pin cover design. Basically, wingsuits require the same container protection as does hardcore freeflying. I do not believe even the strongest velcro will stay secure during the long terminal and over-terminal exposure. Will you be comfortable with that rig on multiple headdown skydives?

bsbd!

Yuri.

[BASE_689]

Hello Donk, Hello Yuri, Hello Jim (thanks so much for the tip of the "knee-on-a-side-of-stash-bag-for-sticking-canopy-quickly-into-it!!!), Hello Base 428, hello my friends!!!!
Happy to see you posting!!!!! Less happy to see you arguing....
I come to my/our (Italian BASE jumper community) point.
I say in advance that I don't read Skydiving magazine, nor I have access to any copy of it.
While we are happy to take our American (and international) friends to our BASE sites (could they (=the BASE sites) be famous or not), also showing them our newly discovered trail up to the exit, we are not happy about advertising our sites. We are not happy at all.
BASE jumpers with the right ability are welcome, but "a" BASE jumper must be someway somehow filtered about his ability of pulling off safely our sites. A way of filtering is being contacted personally and/or inviting personally foreign friends and so "the contact" makes directly the filtering, not allowing his/her newbie friends to join along so endangering the journey, if he/she has not yet got the right ability to do it properly.
While Donk is a good friend of mine and more strictly of BASE #657, if it is true that anyway anyhow he did advertisment about our subterminal wall over the lake, I do not think this is a good idea, even if Donk still remains a good friend of mine.

> I hardly think an article in Skydiving (distribution under 5000) is a threat...
Sorry to say that this is terribly wrong. Yes, 5000 seems "few", but unluckily these 5000 are the only ones in the world to get excited about our sites and the only ones closer to do it/them: if a whuffo reads about our subterminal wall over the lake, it hardly is a "danger", on the opposite, if a 4000-skydives wonder reads that our subterminal wall has got a not-too-tiring-hike-up-to-the-exit (but still jolly difficult to make it if you don't know it...), he gets overexcited and wants to be taken there. Then, it is hard to explain to Mr. Skygod that that site is tremendously serious and difficult and that 4 years ago one of the most experienced Italian BASE jumper hit the wall in a near-death experience of hanging 6 h on the wall with lots of broken bones... ...and coming back to BASE jump again only summer 2002, with myself happily helping him to do it again!!!!!
Difficult to refrain BASE jumpers with not so high ability on walls/terminal walls from wanting to go to our subterminal wall, instead of going to our terminal wall (yes, lots more seconds of freefall, but lots more minutes of hike up.... ...too much tiring...). I write this after a number of foreign jumpers asking to be taken (with not so much experience) to our subterminal wall. Wrong. Sorry to say it, but it is wrong.
We (the active Italian BASE jumpers) look at our subterminal wall with the outmost respect and we believe it is a very serious jump, we don't see why not-too-experienced foreign BASE jumpers WANT to be taken there, when we have a much more safe terminal wall (I know hard hiking sucks, but this is BASE jump!!!!!! Not only the fun of the jump, but you must also pay the ticket (=sweat) for the jump!).
All the international jumpers writing and reading this thread who know personally us know perfectly well how happy we are to take foreign friends up to our sites, but only if our foreign friends have the right ability. And this is done on the "friend-call-friend" basis, and it works!!!!
But if anybody advertises about our sub-terminal wall, we are NOT so happy, because the readers of Skydiving magazine (or any other skydiving magazine) get overexcited about it and they want to do it immediately, they don't give a fùck about doing several jumps on our terminal wall before attempting our subterminal wall.
Example on the BASE section od the forum of Dropzone. Somebody (=a skydiver with zero BASE jumps) read somewhere (probably here on the BASE Board) about the cave. "Somebody" wrote: I want to learn to BASE jump just to do the cave!!!!!!!!
Got the point?
I know that advertising and talking about the latest and terrific BASE journey is terrific, but the aftermath of this is that on earth now they exist more people (=skydivers) eager to bounce (sorry, again, sarcasm...) on our sites. And in the end we are left with more people to be refrained from bouncing our sites.
So, the moral is. Any world jumper (...with the right ability...) is more than welcome to come and jump our sites, but please, stop any advertising about our BASE sites on anywhere (web, magazines, whatever...).
You do not know, but we have enough here in Italy in dealing with these 4000-skydives-wonder "survivors" who pay 50 € to be taken by a good (=sarcasm) boyscout after 15 min briefing, with borrowed BASE gear, to our terminal wall and live the terrific experience of freeflying headdown our terminal wall and telling the terrific tale once back to their DZ to their skydiving buddies...
Strange but it happens...
See you any of you on (our) exit!!!!!

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D

P.S.: To any of you wondering why everytime I write "we" while it is only myself to write, I can explain that in our group I am the only one to sufficiently pull off decent posts in English language!!!

[imported_Tom Aiello]

I haven't read the article yet, but have you had a look at this thread: http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/board/168.html ?

>...none of the sites referenced in the article are a "secret" and we had full cooperation of local authorities.

The thread includes a request from an Italian local not to name legal sites in Italy on the internet, In relevant part:

>Would you mind NOT to mention site's names on the BASE Board, please?
>Leave it alone the name of our terminal wall, that, unfortunately, is famous, by now (we would have preferred not...), but, please, please, please, STOP mentioning on the Internet the names of other sites.
>Thanks so much.
>Stay safe out there
>Blue Skies and Soft Walls
>BASE #689, a concerned local

I would assume that what applies to naming sites here would also apply to naming sites in Skydiving magazine.

It's some seriously bad karma to publicize someone else's sites, especially if they have made a public request (as in the case of all the jumps in that area aside from the terminal wall) that the sites not be publicized.

We Americans have a bad enough reputation already. I hope we're not making it worse.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

I guess I'll have to run out and find that magazine...

Edited to add: Oops, looks like 689 beat me to posting. Don't I look silly?

[imported_Tom Aiello]

Hi Gabriel,

In the interests of not getting an interesting technical issue lost in this thread, I have started a separate disussion in the BLiNC wingsuit forum at:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wingsuit/104.html

Would you mind reading and responding?

Thanks!

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[d-dog]

But Yuri, you are ignoring how truly heroic this trip indeed was. Given that level of heroism, it is completely appropriate for them to name sites - after all, they want the world to know exactly how spectacular their trip was in terms of pushing the boundaries of BASE in important areas.

Let's review some specifics:

- These guys flew WINGSUITS off that big terminal wall in Italy (funny I should hesitate to name it), Did you hear me? WINGSUITS! That's friggin' amazing - I am pretty sure nobody has ever done that before. And they were taking 30+ second delays, which again I'm pretty sure is way outside the old envelope. Finally, they had TEN SECOND canopy rides. Has anyone ever even heard about such an incredible act of bravery? I know I'd crap my pants if I had a 10-second canopy ride.

- The did SUB-TERMINAL jumps from other cliffs in Italy. Sure, there's rumors that other folks have done such jumps. . . but since they didn't write up their acts of heroism in a magazine, it doesn't really count. That's some wild stuff, man.

- I don't even know where to being with their Eiger jumping. I mean, they jumped the friggin' Eiger! Yeah, some Italian opened that site and lots of other folks have jumped it, but again did they write a fluff piece and get it published in a magazine? I don't think so! And they OUT-TRACKED a ledge. . . barely! That is totally mind-blowing!!!!!! Scary stuff! Has anyone else ever out-tracked a ledge in BASE? I didn't think so!

- Lest we forget, they dealt with some serious risk just getting to the Eiger exit. Rather than "climbing the mountain" (which, yeah, is sort of totally incorrect since one simply takes a train partway and then hikes a few hours from the train station to the exit), these wild men (and a woman!!!!!) got in a helicopter for the ride up. A friggin helicpoter - do you know how scary that is??? I mean, it could have crashed or run out of gas or whatever. They could have gotten sick on the ride up - ever think of that? Me, I'd never have the balls to ride a helicopoter to an exit point like that - I'm too chicken and I'd just have to stick with the beautiful hike.

- Ok, now here's the really serious stuff. While you might think that riding a helicpoter to the exit is pretty easy (but of course super dangerous), did you hear about how they had to GET OUT of the chopper? Woah!!!! The chopper couldn't actually land right at the exit, no sir - too small. So these total daredevils had to RAPPEL dowm from the chopper to the exit. . . FOR TEN FEET! Can you imagine that??? Jesus, they could have twisted an ankle or something and missed the jump. Or, maybe, even have broken a fingernail. That stuff really hurts! They are official my heros now, but there's more. . .

- THEY ALMOST HAD CLOUDS!!!!!!!! And you know what? Had there been, like, really bad clouds. . . THEY MIGHT HAVE MISSED THE JUMP!!!!! Cripes, I am scared silly just sitting here and thinking about it. I mean, sure, they brought warm clothes in case they had to wait for the chopper to come pick them back up and stuff - but still, the cold! The discomfort! Well, actually, I think they paid the guides to bring along a picnic lunch so not much discomfort. Still, sitting on a rock for an hour or two can really make your butt sore (especially if you are a lazy-ass American who is too self-important to hike to exits and has to take a chopper instead).


Man, I be the climbers on the Eiger Nordwand (and surrounding mountains) were totally psyched to see those fat Americans getting their fat asses ferried up the Eiger. Nothing like an alpine climbing experience. . . with a chopper going back and forth to save the Americans the hassle of all that, you know, walking and stuff.

Oh, and the coolest thing (according to them) about Lauterbrunnen is that - you guessed it - the SPECTATORS can see you really well. That's totally key, man. Why bother jumping if your groupies can't see your high-pulling masterpiece and "ooooh" and "aaaaaah" about your bravery and heroism. I just HAVE to get myself to Lauterbrunnen and do some "high-spectator-load" jumping. Right friggin' on!

So, Yuri (and Andrea and the rest of the Italian jumpers and all those other whiners), give these guys a break. They are 100% confirmed, corn-fed, apple-pie-eating, mother-loving HEROES!!!!! Heroes, I tell you! If they want to name sites and generally behave badly, who are you to say anything? Are you a HERO? Didn't think so - so shut up already ok!

What the sport of BASE really needs is more hero worship, and I'm going to be the first worshipper. When these guys take their next (paid) trip, I am totally going to be there - as a groupie, mind you, since I am nowhere near heroic enough to jump with these big-balled bad asses.

Oh, it was totally cool too that the whole article was basically an unpaid advertisement for a commercial service. Being whores is kewl!

Peace and hero worship forever,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

someday, when I grow up, I want to go on a super-rad Euro BASE trip just like that one!!!!!!!

[imported_Tom Aiello]

Hi Jim,

In the interests of having a technical discussion, and not getting it lost in this thread, I've started a new one in the wingsuit forum at:

http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/wingsuit/105.html

Would you mind reading and responding?

Thanks!

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@mac.com

[base428]

Just when I finally stopped laughing at D-dog's other posts, I stumbled upon this one......damn funny. You should join up with Robin and write a book or something.

For the record, the trip was a non-commercial gathering of about 14 jumper friends in Europe. If you want to know the FACTS about the trip, feel free to email any of us.

------------
Jason Bell (BASE428)
Email: jbell@vertical-visions.com
Web: www.vertical-visions.com or www.bridgeday.info