TEACHERS IN BASE

[guest]

I would like the opinion of the experienced BASE'rs on people that offer to teach BASE.
I have all the skydive prerequisites to start BASE and have been reading and learning for the past 18mths – and yes I know this still does not give me the knowledge to do my first jump but due to lack of funds I am unable to do the CR or BR courses. Through speaking to people I have managed to get an opportunity to meet with someone who is willing to teach. Before I meet with this person I would like the opinions of others on what you would constitute as experienced enough to teach as I am slightly concerned that this person may not be knowledgable enough or experienced enough to teach a BASE virgin (I do not know at this point the jump numbers / objects etc this person has done). I have looked through the archives and there are various postings on teaching but nothing really to help me. I am worried about being impressed and blinded with this persons knowledge but in the big scheme of things the knowledge may be limited – and how would I be able to tell this seeing that I only have reading time and some eMail conversations. The only scenario I can put it in is a first jump skydive student talking to someone with 150 skydives and thinking they are really experienced – but in the big scheme of things they are not – its all relative!
I don’t want to start asking the BASE’rs I have limited contact with about this person as I do not want to start spreading names around as I believe this to be slightly disrespectful. Basically I want to know when I should be hearing alarm bells about this person who feels has enough experience knowledge to teach – I would rather wait even longer and perhaps save or steal for a course than go out and be lead and have faith in someone I find out (perhaps too late) did not have the experience to teach me in the first place.
Yeah flame me if you want – another BASE wannabe clogging up the BASE board with obvious boring questions – but sorry – I wanna be safe. Surely better this than frapping on an object coz I believed “they know best!”

[guest]

I think this is an important subject. Anyone want to start a discussion about it?

Here are my thoughts:

1) More than 200 BASE jumps.
2) More than 20 different objects.
3) At least five jumps from each of the following: (a) sub-200 ft (usually static line--possibly free fall, especially if you are Down Under), (b) slider down free fall with some delay (1-3 second delay, generally objects around 400 ft), (c) slider up sub-terminal (4-7 second delays, generally objects in the 600-1000 ft range), (d) terminal objects.
4) Solid knowledge of industry standard rigging (i.e. line release modification, tailgates, mesh sliders), even if they don't personally use them.
5) At least 75 jumps in the past year.

The general idea is that a qualified BASE instructor ought to be (a) experienced (in a wide range of jumps), (b) knowledgeable, and (c) current.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[guest]

I agree with the above. My general idea is that a lot of people are capable of taking someone to a safe object and teaching them how to jump that one object but any instructor should be able to teach much more than the first jump. I think they should be capable of showing a student the ropes all the way from first jump to jumping advanced objects such as buildings and encompassing rigging, ethics, weather conditions etc.

Craig

[guest]

No disrespect toward Tom's well-meaning post, but the qualifications he listed are totally arbitrary and don't reflect reality except in the sense of wanting a complete BASE course -- and of course, it doesn't include TEACHING ABILITY.

There are lots of base jumpers who know what THEY are doing -- and who meet or surpass Tom's suggested requirements -- but that doesn't mean they know how to TEACH and SUPERVISE you.

And what do you want to do anyway? There are different things you need to know from different people.

Who needs an instructor with a bunch of sub-200-foot PCA jumps when all you want to do is jump the cliffs at Kjerag?

NOt to mention all the 300-jump BASE wonders out there who have 250 off the Perrine Bridge, 20 from New River and the rest from some tried and true sites that are totally dialed in.

Twenty different objects?

HOw about 20 NEW objects? Successfully doing NEW objects totally and completely changes the risk, analysis and skillset equation. I can tell you from personal experience that I would trust Fumio Kubo in Japan to train you long before I would trust a BUNCH of these 300-jump lemmings who go where many men have gone before.

Fumio had 20 BASE jumps when I met him, from about 14 different objects, and almost all of those 14 of those objects had never been jumped before he did them.

He absolutely knows his stuff yet the so-called gods these days wouldn't even let him on their loads, much less recommend him to train you.

What is MORE IMPORTANT than all this arbitrary and generally non-useful requirements Tom lays out is finding someone whom you TRUST as a TEACHER in general terms, someone who is through in approach and presentation and who leaves you feeling comfortable and confident when his training is done.

THe other thing is to do what Dennis McGlynn always advises (and which you ARE doing through your post): ASK LOTS OF PEOPLE.

Tell them what you want to jump, what equipment you have, and how they would go about it if they were you.

ANd it doesn't hurt (much) to practice in the swimming pool and get your exit right.


A BASIC beginner problem is over-rotation on exit by beginners who leave their feet on the object while their body leans forward.

a 3-meter platform can "cure" you of this problem very quickly. You get 3/4 of a second of freefall from three meters. If you leave at the right attitude from the platform, you will rotate just enough that you will enter the water at a comfortable angle and not hurt yourself.

If you lean forward before your feet leave the board, you will end up flat on your stomach when you HIT the water and it will HURT.

Figure this part out (which you can do by yourself) and you'll have a solid foundation for a good exit.

Then, PRACTICE rear riser grabs and quick steering after opening on SKYDIVES.

As Dwain Weston says, training reduces risk, so train in all the skills you can through skydiving.

then make sure someone supervises your packing!

There's plenty more, of course, but what Tom suggests doesn't mean anything: There are many GOOD TEACHERS without tons of experience, and there are BAD TEACHERS who are great and highly experienced.

Robin

[guest]

I agree with the central thrust of Robin's post (that simply being an experienced jumper does not qualify one to teach). Actual instruction requires actual instructional skills, which may not exist even in the most experienced jumper.

Let's discuss some of these excellent points.

>Who needs an instructor with a bunch
>of sub-200-foot PCA jumps when all you
>want to do is jump the cliffs at
>Kjerag?

I think that any BASE jumper ought to have the knowledge to make a 200 ft PCA, even if they "only" intend to jump 3000 foot cliffs when they are trained.

I think it would be irresponsible of an instructor to teach someone to be a "Norway Jumper." If you embark on teaching someone to BASE jump, you should be willing to undertake the complete task of making them a BASE jumper. This may include lots of things they don't see the use for (site ethics for illegal sites, for example), in their intended career as a Norway Cliff God. However, it is the responsibility of the instructor to realize that their student may one day decide to jump something else (at home, say) and needs to be at least marginally prepared for that eventuality.

To suggest that we ought to train "Norway Jumpers" rather than BASE jumpers is just as dangerous as suggesting that someone with loads of skydives is automatically qualified to BASE jump.

I believe that a BASE education ought to be a complete education in all aspects of BASE. Even (or especially) if the student doesn't see the use of some of it.

>Twenty different objects?
>
>HOw about 20 NEW objects?
>Successfully doing NEW objects totally
>and completely changes the risk,
>analysis and skillset equation.

Robin is totally correct here. Opening an object is a totally different experience, and goes way beyond just jumping an object.

20 new objects seems a bit excessive, though. Perhaps five new objects, or even one?

>What is MORE IMPORTANT than all this
>arbitrary and generally non-useful
>requirements Tom lays out is finding
>someone whom you TRUST as a TEACHER in
>general terms, someone who is through
>in approach and presentation and who
>leaves you feeling comfortable and
>confident when his training is done.

I totally agree.

>THe other thing is to do what Dennis
>McGlynn always advises (and which you
>ARE doing through your post): ASK LOTS
>OF PEOPLE.

Again, an excellent point which I had overlooked.

>There are many GOOD TEACHERS
>without tons of experience, and there
>are BAD TEACHERS who are great and
>highly experienced.

And I think this is the central piece of wisdom that Robin has shared with us.

M, I hope this discussion is helping you.

Robin, thanks for adding to this thread. It looked for a while there like a great question from a newbie was going to be ignored. I'm glad it hasn't been.

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[guest]

Ill make a single point (maybe more). There are basically only 4 major respectable "Schools" in the U.S. for teaching base. Taught by experienced BASE people. I went thru one of them, and frankly, it sucked by almost all of your definitions. There are teachers and there are non-teachers. These people were non teachers. They taught how to jump off A bridge. Everything else was a whirlwind of information that few will retain. However you start, you start small, and then continuously expand from there. Youll learn far more from your "crew" than you will from an official school. Youll learn far more after the school than you did in it. And no student is going to pick up much more than the thrill of their first jump and an impression of what will follow if they choose to continue. A good instructor is someone who cares about you, and who will stay with you; taking you into the crew. He teaches you perrine. Youve got perrine. thats all, not a license to do everything else. If you want more, than get mentored up the next object. Your supposed to constantly learn and expand, doing this in progressive stages at different times is how we all learned. Basically this is an issue of responsibility; we're getting nit picky and analytical over it because we're not ready to take responsibility for your injuries. Any answer you get will be extensive and highly critical. Ask Robin and Tom whether their still learning, still making mistakes, and , did they check the license, past, and competence of those people who taught them?Base learning and jumping are a lot about taking responsibility for yourself. Get to know your base instructor. If you dont like them, dont jump with them. Let common sense prevail. If it sounds wrong, it is. Check the baseboard for a different opinion on what your instructor tells you. and lastly crew for your instructor several times before diving in. Youll learn much if you see crashes, and object strikes, and dumb mistakes and dumb comments like, "oops". What im getting at is that if the base schools are the standard, im not impressed with the standard. The schools exist for money, someone teaching you for free, usually cares more about the sport and you, and I think youll learn more, but again let common sense guide you. Dont learn from someone who has 100 jumps. Dont learn from someone known for their base injuries...you follow? Also, beware of someone eager to teach you. A lot of people are insecure and need you to make them feel important by taking you under their wing. You want an instructor who is stand-offish at first, not willing to take you, someone whose respect you need to earn. If you have to convince them that your stable, capable, calm, willing to crew for awhile, not crazy or stupid, loyal and the like then they likely are the instructor for you, if they meet common sense minimums of skill and experience and teaching ability. Good luck, and welcome to BASE! p.s. call tom! Hes got a spare rig and likes students!

[guest]

Are you willing to tell us which course you thought was bad?

I'm sure that kind of information would help others select a course (and might help the instructors re-think their instructional methods).

Also, which are the four schools you are thinking of? My mental inventory only runs to three (CR, BR, Vertigo). Who am I missing?

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[guest]

Morpheus Technologies. I saw them in action at the Perrine and was really impressed with their thoroughness and attention to detail. Rob and Kathy are genuinely good people as well.

[guest]

I have one disagreement with Robin and agreement with Tom. What about on a cold cloudy day at Kjerag when you can only jump Eagles Nest?

Otherwise, all is good. Every different person and jump site needs to have slightly different teaching techniques by competant teachers. What about ethics and common sense? Lots of newer jumpers don't want to learn that?

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

[guest]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-01 AT 02:03 AM (PST)[/font][p]Hi,

I would like to agree with the opinion "graduate" showed, and elaborate. I'll post my story, which, I found, meets your opinions. It's a bit long, but it shows a lot of important points so please stick with me.

I live in Israel. There was NO jumping here, whatsoever, when I took up BASE. There had been a couple of skydivers that had a one time experience (Deland or Kjerag) but neither one of them was "in the sport". I first heard about BASE from American sailors whose ships used to anchor in Haifa and they came to my home DZ. That was also when I had first heard about Bridge Day.

To make a long story short, I trained in packing and exiting with the assistan of a foreign jumper who lived in Israel, went to BD, did a couple of jumps, then waited a whole year because I wasn't experienced enough to start scorching Israel, and the year after I went to the US again, this time travelling around, meeting experienced people and learning from new objects.

I returned home with 11 jumps from 5 new objects, including towers, bridges and even a smokestack (Courtesy of BASE428...), and both slider-up and off jumps. A month after I came I was approached by a skydiving buddy of mine who surprised me with having 6 jumps off a famous Californian bridge. So, we agreed to pioneer the sport in the country.

All along, and I would really like to emphasize this point, I let my inherent insecurity to guard me, having already ordered a climbdown twice in the US. Before every new jump, which also meant a new object in this virgin land, I would go, inspect it, climb it, take pictures, call up Martha at Vertigo and Adam at CR and bother them with the pictures and dozens of questions. I would suggest an exit, then ask for criticism. I would even ask how to pack, even though I probably knew the answer.

So we started pioneering the country, collecting first time jumps on objects, and when I had about 17, a friend of mine had asked me to teach him.

Here's the important point:

Even though I knew all the technical details, because I had been jumping with the best and reading every post here, I specifically told him that I would NOT take him to a jump. At most, I was willing to teach him packing, train him on exits (we even made a baloon jump together and I filmed him) and I would also plan his trip to the US to meet experienced jumpers whom I trusted to actually take him to the exit point.

We three (me, my BASE buddy and the wannabe) flew to California, where we met with Mick Knutson, whom had agreed to take the training from there. Not only that, TWICE was my friend taken to the exit point at the famous bridge and told we were all not feeling that the conditions were right for him, so he climed down. Like they say, third time was a charm.

We continued the trip and added some nice objects to the list, such as power towers, and returned home with almost double the jumps.

Ever since, we've been jumping pretty much every REASONABLY-JUMPABLE object. Israel is a generally object-poor country, so we can't afford to be picky, but we DO call off jumps for each other, and we always, but ALWAYS, go by this rule of thumb:

UNLESS YOU ARE 100% SURE AND PREPARED, YOU CLIMB DOWN.

We once climbed down a building after waiting for 8 hours on the roof, because I was starting to feel uncomfortable with the jump, even though all the factors were on my side. I wasn't sure, so we climbed down. It's that simple.

People who know me personally know that even losing an arm didn't stop me from jumping. My insecurity guards me even more nowadays, as I am aware of my inability to handle certain situations, or handle them poorly at best. Nevertheless, I try to groundcrew every jump made here, just so there's another eye watching things.

So, to sum up:

Neither one of us three knew it all. Neither one of us had an instructor that knew everything. I learned a little every jump, calling up Adam and Martha to learn more.

I have a lot of teaching experience in the computer business - years. I know exactly how much new information a person can digest AND MEMORIZE at a certain time. Having God as an instructor is as good as a person who knows all about BASE canopy flying, all about this object, and nothing about the rest. (A litle exxageration, but you get my point)

Like "graduate" said: You learn a bit at a time, each time the necessary bits. Just make sure you learn the bits from people you trust (a major issue, IMHO) and that you know for a fact that they know them - the tricky point. Even go as ground crew for a few times - it helps a lot, ask BPS.

Longest posting I ever had. I hope it helps,

Inbar.

[guest]

Mince Division suffered a casuality, the most serious injury of a Mince Division member thus far (flys his wingsuit like a goat so I'm told). Furthermore, I don't believe he has the ability to teach practical application of the theory right now (being unable to walk without some sort of assistance), but give him time, he will come back again... Right???

[guest]

Thanks everyone who took their time to write - appreciate the help. That specific avenue is now closed. Well I was told last year that patience would be needed! - How right was that advice!!

Thanks again - the journey is still on going.

[guest]

Well done Mr. BASE 44.
You did an excellent job of summation and guidance.
RR

[imported_mknutson]

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jul-23-01 AT 08:47 AM (PST)[/font][p]I am writing a document, while on vacation, to describe many things I have learned over the past 3 days.
Tom has a genral outline of what many people should have, but the document I am going to put out will be a harsh reality to *WANNABE* instructors, and skydivers that think they can Fast track into BASE. I will be outlining 4 MAJOR skill areas that should be the "LAW" before you start BASE. If a student does not want to do what this document recommends, then they dont want to BASE very much.

STUDENT SKILLS:
BASE Freefall skills
Canopy Freefall Skills
Rigging Skills
Meteorology Skills (weather)

These skills should be mastered in Skydiving before you start BASE.

We need to stop right now....and look at the students, and teachers, and use the knowledge we have learned over the last 3,5,20 years.

[hr]
[font color=#9999FF]
Thank You
Mick Knutson :D
[a href=/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi]
[img src=/cgi-bin/gallery/randthumb.cgi?Building align=left border=0]
[/a] [link:www.blincmagazine.com|BLiNC Magazine]
"Everything you ever wanted to know about BASE Jumping, but didn't know whom to ask."

[hr]
* [link:www.blincmagazine.com/cgi-bin/forum/dcboard.cgi?az=user_register|Registered with BLiNC?]
* [link:www.basejumper.net|FREE Web Based E-Mail @ BASEJumper.net]
* [link:www.blincmagazine.com/newsletter.shtml|Newsletter]
* [link:www.blincmagazine.com/store/|Store]
* [link:www.blincmagazine.com/review/|Product Ratings]
* [link:www.blincmagazine.com/weather/|Weather]
[/font]

[guest]

Hi M,
If you have any concern about the guru, shoot the guru!!!
As an experienced skydiver, I just started base jumping, and one of the critical factor is the coach. Not only his/her technical skills and knowledge, but also his/her character and your relationship with him/her.
Have fun & be safe.