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  1. #1
    guest
    Guest

    Emergency parachutes

    Some well articulated information on this controversial subject. Just food for thought.

    The following is posted with the expressed written permission from the authors.

    An email from Dan Preston...

    i have heard a bunch of skydivers make statements like 'if i had a parachute on the upper floors of the wtc i would have lived.'

    some morbid math:

    energy in 1 gallon of jet fuel: 135,000 btu
    a boeing 767 holds 23,980 gallons. it is estimated that only 3000 gallons detonated on impact, the remaining continued to burn.
    the explosive energy from both planes = 9 * 10 ^11 joules (10 to the 11th power). this is equivalent to 180 tons of TNT. the energy released from the burning of
    the remaining fuel is over 5 * 10 ^12 joules, this is equivalent to over 990 tons of TNT.

    50,000,000,000,000 joules (a joule is a watt/second) this is how much power was released generating heat from the burning fuel.
    this is equal in energy release to a small tactical nuclear warhead or almost 2000 tomahawk cruise missiles.

    the heat energy of the fire was double the total collapse energy of both towers (1,365' tall. 1.25 million tons in weight, collapse energy 2 * 10 ^12 joules).
    try to fathom what all that heat did, generating tremendous intensity swirling air patterns. thermal updrafts, vortecies, down drafts, etc....
    what makes anyone think that if helicopters could not fly through the fire turbulence, anywhere near the roof, that a parachute would function in the thick of it?
    sincerely,

    dan
    atair aerodynamics
    www.extremefly.com


    Personal Parachutes: The Ethics of Safety Many of us since the attack on the World Trade Center have been asking how this could have been prevented. And if it could not have been prevented, how then could we have had more survivors? As daunting as it is to think of, a parachute appears to be a logical and effective means of escape. After all, Leonardo DaVinci conceived in 1485 the first parachute specifically for the purpose of escaping safely from fires in tall buildings, and there have been countless other inventors and engineers who have worked on similar ideas since his time. Why then have we never seen this technology in use? Simply put, it is not necessarily a good idea. The recent events have led the public in a state of helpless anxiety to seek protection, reassurance, and a means to escape. Thousands of gallons of water have been sold, as well as a multitude of flashlights, antibiotics, gas masks, and now, personal parachutes. Several companies have taken advantage of this new demand by marketing parachute systems to office workers, hotel guests, emergency workers, and high rise tenants. One example, The Executive Chute is being advertised as a last resort when fleeing a structure over 20 stories. While the idea of marketing an emergency escape system itself is an admirable idea, it is highly irresponsible to sell these parachutes to people without adequate training. Their web site makes it seem like anyone could just pop it out of their desk drawer at work and saunter out to the nearest ledge and leap to safety. Another company, Precision Aerodynamics, is marketing the Emergency Building Escape Parachute System. They compare the need for an EscapeChute for people in high rises as similar to the need of a life preserver when traveling beyond swimming range from shore. People need to understand that this is not as simple as putting on a life vest. While their web site does say training required, they also promote the EscapeChute as an easy and obvious choice: By following simple instructions, the parachute is automatically deployed for you. All you have to do to initiate deployment is to jump out the window and away from the building. Simple steering and landing techniques can deliver you to the surface with confidence. A video is provided with purchase of the canopy, which may falsely lead people to believe that this is all the training they need. B.A.S.E. jumping, for the most part illegal in this country, is the extreme sport of jumping off of stationary objects (Building, Antennae, Span (bridges), and Earth). Buildings are the most difficult, even for a highly experienced jumper. Morpheus Technologies, which provides one of the only legal US training courses for B.A.S.E. jumpers, will not even let anyone sign up for their courses unless they are already a licensed and experienced skydiver with a minimum of 200 jumps. Even then, their training is intensive and rigorous. Kathy Gillespie-Jones at Morpheus says As amanufacturer of B.A.S.E. specific equipment, we feel a responsibility to the general public. There is no quick fix in this situation. A background in skydiving and a very thorough training course are needed to even begin to pursue what we look at as a SPORT. Even then, we can die! B.A.S.E rigs contain only one parachute and there is no back up, as typically altitudes are so low that it would not be possible to deploy a reserve in time. Packing must be perfect as well as your body position when jumping off the building to provide for the best chance that the parachute will open properly, on-heading, away from the building and with adequate horizontal separation. There are so many other variables that need to betaken into consideration when executing a base jump just under good conditions, such as exit height, wind patterns, piloting the parachute, just to name a few. An experienced and trained B.A.S.E jumper under good conditions is going to be a highly different model than a panicked inexperienced office worker, who would in all likelihood be severely injured or killed using a parachute to escape from a building. For a novice even with training, the lack of conditioning would cause a sensory overload which could preventthem from being able to react and properly use the equipment. Fire within a building would take this to an entirely different level of risk. Greg Yarbenet, the inventor of the slider which made modern parachuting possible, did studies about fifteen years ago, researching the effectiveness of escaping from a burning structure with a parachute. Parachuting from a burning building has to take into account the very unusual wind patterns that develop from a very hot rising air mass that is being replaced by the cooler, lower air that is now funneling upwards to replace the hot air. He clocked the thermal updrafts at over two thousand feet per minute at the top of a test burning building. Air near the ground began to swirl upwards in a small vortex that changed the velocity and direction according to doors, windows, and other building shapes that allowthe air to find the easiest path to the flames. Rising thermals off of the top created sudden downdrafts on the leeward side. Yarbenet found that any normal size parachute would not function well in such turbulent conditions, and could be pulled back up in the strong updrafts or collapse in the multiple vortexes along the sides of the building. Daniel Preston, of the New York based parachute company, Atair Aerodynamics, has mixed feelings on the subject. When asked if he would work in a high rise without his B.A.S.E. rig Preston answered definitely not. He believes that people should be given all the facts, allowing them to then seek training and make an educated purchase. However, he is against the selling of escape parachutes to the general public. As a New York company, Atair finds the ads for these products to be in horrendous taste, dangerously misleading and opportunistic. One company, B.E.S. even showed a banner of one of the towers being hit and people falling to their death. It is specifically the way these products are being marketed that is irresponsible, says Preston, B.A.S.E. jumping requires training, period. It is not something you can just learn in a few hours from reading a book or seeing a video. The first step is to learn how to skydive. With a couple hundred jumps under your belt, you could consider learning B.A.S.E. Preston estimated the survivability rate of some of these personal escape parachute systems to be less than 50%. That means that half of the people jumping would probably die. Other industry leaders estimated the survivability rate to be less. By comparison in skydiving where everyone is trained and licensed, fatality rates are less than one in one hundred thousand jumps. The majority of those fatalities are caused by pilot error under a fully functioning parachute. While it would be arguable that one should take any chance in the case of extreme emergency, the difficulty with that is determining what exactly is a last ditch situation. I could envision many situations where people would be likely to jump when they don't have to, says Preston. It is estimated that 70% of the people in the World Trade Towers escaped the through the stairwells. According to Cliff Schmucker, president of the Parachute Industry Association, theres obviously people out here trying to make a quick buck in a bad situation&.At least one person was looking into congressional relief for the liability issue.. This would be disastrous, as it would remove accountability for improperly designed, tested and marketed products. Dan Poynter, a well known publisher and writer of educational and technical texts on sport parachuting, says sure, if you are a base jumper and on the 28th floor, keep your rig at the office, but for other people it doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Poynter believes a parachute could work for some people in some cases, but there are many, many questions to be answered with regard to practicality, cost, training and design. Atair manufactures a B.A.S.E. parachute called the Troll and states that the parachutes accumulated one thousand live real world jumps before it was offered for sale. What is being marketed by many companies as escape systems, is untested technology. The way that it is being marketed is misleading and sensationalist. While I am not against the possibility of escaping from a building with a parachute, says Preston, there are so many things that need to be taken into consideration, and which seem to be overlooked in these current products. you can not just take an off the shelf para-glider reserve parachute, put it in a container and market it for a wholly different, far more complex and demanding application&its not safe. The systems being marketed at this time have appeared on a variety of television shows and are gaining a lot of publicity. From what we have seen, says Gillespie-Jones, The harness seems to be extremely awkward and the point in which the static line connector is located is very prone to cause an entanglement with the body. We witnessed complete failure by a company representative to put this system on properly. This was done on theToday Show in a controlled environment. There is no way that a person in a panicked state could begin to equip themselves properly in a timely fashion. It is very frustrating to see the direction that this whole thing is going in. Companies seem to be jumping on the bandwagon, offering parachuting equipment that in any other application would take months if not years of research and development, drop testing and live testing in a variety of environments before there would even be a consideration to sell to the public. What transpired in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania isabsolutely tragic and it was horrifying to see those people jump from the World Trade Center. Unfortunately, jumping with many of these escape systems that are being marketed in the aftermath under those same circumstances may not have saved lives, but only extended them by a second or two.

    written by Heather SinclairİOctober 19, 2001



  2. #2
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Emergency parachutes

    >energy in 1 gallon of jet fuel: 135,000 btu
    >a boeing 767 holds 23,980 gallons. it is
    >estimated that only 3000 gallons detonated on
    >impact, the remaining continued to burn.
    >the explosive energy from both planes = 9 * 10
    >^11 joules (10 to the 11th power). this is
    >equivalent to 180 tons of TNT. the energy
    >released from the burning of
    >the remaining fuel is over 5 * 10 ^12 joules,
    >this is equivalent to over 990 tons of TNT.
    >
    >5,000,000,000,000 joules (a joule is a
    >watt/second) this is how much power was released
    >generating heat from the burning fuel.
    >this is equal in energy release to a small
    >tactical nuclear warhead or almost 2000 tomahawk
    >cruise missiles.

    [Note the correction above -- 5 x 10^12 is "5,00...", not "50,00..."]

    Now, I don't want to argue against the fact that there was a lot of energy involved in the two collisions, or that that energy would have produced a bunch of turbulence and maybe (probably?) collapsed any parachute descending near it... But this kind of "math" irritates me. It means nothing.

    The recommended daily energy intake for an adult male is 2000 Calories (8,410,000 joules). Which means that your typical 40-year-old is supposed to have taken in something like 122,000,000,000 joules of food energy. That is equal in energy release to almost five tomahawk cruise missiles!

    &-) It's rediculous, of course, but true. The point is that 2000 tomahawk missiles would have released *all* of that energy in a fraction of a second. The collisions released *some* of that energy (not all of the fuel burned, and it probably didn't burn efficiently) in a considerably longer time (what did burn burned over the course of days).

  3. #3
    jason
    Guest

    RE: Emergency parachutes

    :P Er... That should be fifty tomahawks, not five... My bad.

  4. #4
    Tom B
    Guest

    Exploitation BES etc

    A controversial subject indeed. I would like to briefly discuss it from two angles: money, and safety.

    First of all. I am all for supply and demand. If people want to put in the effort to satisfy their material wants, good luck to them. If they want to exploit the emotional / mental weaknesses of a population, all the best. By its definition, marketing/selling is all about exploiting weaknesses. "Oooohhhhh those shoes are awesome because Michael Jordan wears them, I must have a pair".

    So to all those people / companies selling emergency parachutes, I sincerely hope you all make millions of dollars.

    But now for some reality.

    As a BASE jumper and someone involved in BASE jumping safety, I am a little concerned with all the claims that have been made by the various manufacturers and distributors.

    1 - Testing these systems....
    I find it a little too ironic that a number of manufacturers suddenly start marketing/advertising their products soon after the WTC tragedy - with nothing much appearing beforehand. When you couple this timing with the fact that most of the emergency parachutes are EXISTING technology, it is a little hard to believe that they have extensively tested these systems over many jumps and a long period of time. I can only draw the obvious conclusion that some (probably all) people selling this equipment are purely commercial opportunists.

    To draw an analogy, it would be like an umbrella salesman suddenly trying to sell umbrellas to a population that has just been affected by acid rain.

    They are purely driven by personal profiteering from a paranoid population. Safety is only the sales pitch. Various comments in their advertising confirm this. "easy to use", "no training required", "no maintenance required for 10 years", "just read the instructions", etc.

    These comments bring me to safety & BASE jumping ethics.

    The previous posts have made a number of valid comments about emergency escape systems.

    Wind affects on burning buildings, fear overriding peoples decision making ability, likelihood of misuse of equipment due to little or NO training (people often mess up when interpreting instructions), etc.

    I'd like to add:

    I am very concerned about the "Russian Roulette" attitude that some sellers of these systems have for their potential customers. Most BASE manufacturers and organisations demand various levels of experience prior to selling BASE specific equipment or training people. WHY? Because they know that the likely outcome will be serious injury or death. Why does the aviation / skydiving world have various ratings / endorsements /etc that people are required to obtain before using specific equipment? Because the likely outcome would be injury or death otherwise. If you translate that logic to other industrial or commercial safety systems, you will find that all safety eqiupment requires some form of certification / training / refresher training prior to use. E.g fire extinguishers, life rafts, etc.

    Selling a safety system without training is absolutely disgraceful!!!!! Especially from people within the parachuting / BASE industry who hold instructor ratings or manufacture equipment for BASE.

    Long term maintenance cycles????? Why does the parachuting industry insist on regular reserve checks?

    What about the issue of legality and BASE jumping? Does this mean I can jump any building with a fire and get away with it - no matter how small the fire is? If a BASE jumper uses this defense in court, will the authorities get the shits and bump up the penalties?

    Will members of the pepsi-max extremist general public buy these systems and try them (without any experience requirements which SOME (not all) manufacturers demand)?

    This all leads to another issue that some manufacturers may or may not have considered. LITIGATION.

    Now consider the very likely scenario where Bobs 30 story building is on fire and all his coworkers decide to follow standard evacuation procedure.

    Bob pulls out his package containing his 8 year old rig - he has to brush off dust and some cans of lubricants that were stored in the cupboard (what is that light stain on the rig??). In his panic he skim reads the instructions. A crowd is building up below to watch the fire (human nature - we like to watch). Bob's wife is in the crowd too. She sees Bob's workmates exit the building just as he leaps off. The instructions that Bob did not read carefully enough stated that he should face away from the building, but he faced towards instead. His static line entangled with his body. Some how he managed to free himself and he canopy deployed. Of course, Bob was unstable and his legs were caught in the lines of the canopy. One line was broken. He was in a fit of panic now and could not focus on the job at hand (stearing his canopy and bracing for a fall). He smacked into the building and shattered several large panes of glass. They fell to the crowd below. Finally he flew away from the building and descended towards the crowd standing behind the barricades set up by the fire department. He was still hanging upside down when he hit two people with his head. The speed of the impact killed the two spectators, but Bob managed to survive. However, he ended up a paraplegic with slight brain damage.

    Bob found out later that:
    1 - all his workmates survived
    2 - the equipment storage instructions were inadequate - the fabric had deteriorated which increased the descent rate, etc.
    3 - the advertising emphasized several times that the equipment was easy to use and a great safety option. Even though it said in fine print that it was a last resort.

    Outcome, Bob and his wife take the retailer, manufacturer, distributor, and advertiser to court. $XXXM compensation payed out.

    Tom B

    Director of Safety & Operations
    Australian BASE Association

    p.s. these opinions are mine and not necessarily those of the ABA!!!

    Must work - more later.



  5. #5
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Exploitation BES etc

    Well said Tom. I agree widdall dat.

    Howz that baby boy?

  6. #6
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Emergency parachutes

    Aside from Jason's ignorant an inconsequential remarks about the math, do any of the hardworking emergency parachute manufacturer have a rebuttal?

    Believe me, I'd like to see it be plausible. But most of the information leans the other way. :-(

  7. #7
    guest
    Guest

    out by x 1000

    don't want to be pedantic Jason but your calculation is out by a factor of 1000 x.
    One calorie= 4.184 joules. It gets messy when some texts use "c" for calorie and others "C." By international convention the larger C usually means kilocalories (1000 x c), and c= heat required to heat 1mL of water from 14.5 to 15.5 degrees Celsius.

    It all gets messed up when they use joules and kjoules and the incorrect nomenclature for calories. Should that be c or C????? Ha, ha.

    I knew my chemistry lectures would be useful although I haven't used the acid hydrolysis techniques for some time, Feral are you listening?

  8. #8
    feral
    Guest

    RE: out by x 1000

    Watch it Neil my sheep loving Ansett killing kiwi mate, check with JJ,J.Jeninnings,Jim.J,Jim.Jennings,The jumper formally know as JJ Aka Br pin up boy,Freefall leader,About the people who have talked ..


    PS Suck sh!t you traveling everywhere and tell everyone about it Assh@le I am off to Interlarkin to test the Swiss smack scene ,Irro tells me it is up there with my favorite, Cabbramatta .A Big shout out to the 5T and Vin Tran 3 weeks of Snow and big walls and pure grade smack have been waiting since 99 for this one..
    Email pr!ck I lost your email address as you are only a kiwi and I don't save kiwi addresses to my address book ha ha ha ha ..

    feral
    bsbd feral:-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(

    The power of Pink!!!!!!

  9. #9
    jason
    Guest

    RE: out by x 1000

    A little checking shows that the original post is not only sensationalistic, but grossly inaccurate.

    1 kT is 4.18 x 10^12 joules. The Tomahawk is can be configured for anything between 1 (conventional) and 250 (nuclear) kT. Even assuming an especially puny Tomahawk, the numbers quoted for the total burn don't amount to more than one missile. I have no idea where 2,000 came from.

    Perhaps somebody can set me straight on this?

  10. #10
    jason
    Guest

    Aw #####...

    I shiver at the thought of wasting more bandwidth on this, but wanted to take the time to point out my own error. The Tomahawk is configurable as low as 0.5 ton, and therefore 2000 of 'em to 1 kT is entirely reasonable. Red herring, yes. Inaccurate, no.

  11. #11
    jason
    Guest

    RE: out by x 1000

    >don't want to be pedantic Jason but your
    >calculation is out by a factor of 1000 x.
    >One calorie= 4.184 joules. It gets messy when
    >some texts use "c" for calorie and others "C."
    >By international convention the larger C usually
    >means kilocalories (1000 x c), and c= heat
    >required to heat 1mL of water from 14.5 to 15.5
    >degrees Celsius.

    I'm aware of that. The recommended adult diet is 2000-2500 Calories (about 9000 kJ). Check:

    http://www.aso.org.uk/oric/backgrnd/energy.htm

    But that's really not the point. The point is throwing numbers like five trillion joules around, or comparing the energy of an explosive release to that of a controlled burn, is ultimately far less meaningful than dicussing the fact that the fire would undoubtedly have produced enormous thermals and (perhaps, just maybe) enough heat to damage nylon.

    The question was never about how much heat energy, exactly or approximately, was released in the fire. The "five trillion joules" post is a red herring. I thought that should be made clear.

    :D Your mileage may vary.

  12. #12
    BLiNC Magazine Supporter (Silver) crwper's Avatar
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    RE: Emergency parachutes

    I consider Jason's remarks neither ignorant nor inconsequential. His math may or may not be correct, but I agree with his basic point.

    There's a big difference between a certain amount of energy which is released in a fraction of a second (cruise missiles) and the same amount of energy released over a couple of weeks (burning building). The comparison is sensationalist and doesn't really contribute to any understanding of turbulence surrounding a burning building.

    Michael

  13. #13
    guest
    Guest

    Learn to THINK, kiddies

    Number one: Dan said NOTHING about the fuel burning for two weeks. It didn't. Whatever's still burning is burning two MONTHS later and it AIN'T Jet A.

    read the morbid math: approx. 3k gallons went off on impact; the rest burned before the collapse.

    Number two: No matter how you cut it, any parachute in any condition is better than no chute at all and maybe Aussie firemen aren't professional or smart enough to keep gawkers away from the building but American firemen are. Whoever Tom B. is, he's obviously been sucking down too many Foster's to have a CLUE about what he's talking about.

    It was good for a laugh though. You BASE pukes always are pretty funny, thinking you're so smart about jumping from buildings in perfect conditions with skydiving-based gear when the subject at hand is a last chance at life in an extremely dangerous uncontrolled situation. Get a clue, twinkies; survival ethics and imperatives don't revolve around your self-centered twaddle.

    Why don't you just shut up and jump and leave the thinking to people who know how?

    :*

  14. #14
    feral
    Guest

    RE: Learn to THINK, kiddies

    Who is Tom B .....You my son bow down hold your head low And Show the World Champ some God dam respect!!!!

    OK I can clear up the most important point raised in this Thread. No Australian Drinks or has ever drank Fosters .That is the Sh!t we export to you Smackys .


    Now I cant spell for sh!t and my grammar su(ks so sorry if you find this hard to read but I type the same as I talk fast and allover the place..

    Years of CIA Imported Smack abuse...


    About the other thing .If you can save a life good but it would be a shame if down the line or in the not to distant future .A building will catch fire every body will rush for there lifesaver chutes and jump 75% will be killed .But I hear you Mr THINK give me a second...
    the another 20% Wheelchair bound of badly maimed and the 5% walk away with little injurys..

    All good i hear you say MR Think 25% saved Until the Fire chiefs and the police and the local government say that the fire was put under control and everybody would have got out alive some smoke inhalation aside if they had not used the lifesaver chutes ,so all the family and friends will be looking for some one to blame and sue as you Yanks sue each other for everything,so you could see a class action taking out against the poor company who happened to supply that company.

    And the people behind it ,that were and still are jumpers that made base gear to make the sport safe and save so many base jumpers lives will be taken to the cleaners and base jumpers will also be looked upon and bad people who should have prevented this from happening Sorry if I seam cold hearted .But I am looking at this as a base jumper .Most of the people never give us a chance to enjoy out sport All we want to do is have fun and jump ..

    Well a few Seppo's and a tall Ozzie and a half yank/Ozzie like to win comps,but some thing like this could have big effects on your legal sites and the sites around the world..

    Maybe I am thinking too much my brain (what is left of it hurts)

    so if you can make seance of this ranting raving smack addicted feral You can see that there is a bad side to this for all .I hope that all that companies and jumpers that put there names to it protect they companies and them selves.

    I must go the last train to Cabbramatta is here soon I am getting the shakes....

    I have attached a photo so you can see the dumb cant spell smackdaddy ..


    bsbd feral

  15. #15
    guest
    Guest

    RE: Emergency parachutes

    Building Escape Systems decided to produce this system as a preventive measure, as insurance against future disasters. It has nothing to do with jet fuel and plane crashes. It has everything to do with the future, and the fact that people will be killed in high rise disasters. History has proven that there will continue to be occurrences in high-rise buildings that jeopardize human life.

    1988 MGM Grand hotel fire in Las Vegas, 86 people died. How many would have lived using this type of system?

    1993 First Interstate tower downtown Los Angeles. 6 floors fully involved and completely destroyed. Fortunately the fire was at night and killed only one person. What if it had happened at some other time?

    During the year 1999 there were 30,000 fires in high rise buildings. Sound unbelievable? Its true.

    1993 WTC bombing NYC. Helicopters were unable to affect rescues from the roof of the WTC buildings because of the forest of antennas. They had to send someone down to cut them away before they could even get over the roof and drop a cable. These are facts I got from the U.S. Fire fighters association. The link is on our website. That is the same reason they were not used this time. After close study of the building and all the graphic data, we have come to believe that not a single jumper would have lost a chute due to the fire. The wind currents that are being spoke about are easily visible by studying the smoke. I jump for fun, I would sure jump if my life depended on it.

    Someday Los Angeles will see that 8.5 plus earthquake. When? We just dont know, we do know that it will happen. Someday another building fire will trap and kill people. It did not take us long to decide that if we can make a difference then we will.

    This system was not put on the market until we were sure it would do what we intended it to do. Now is the time to stop pulling up wuffo arguments and outdated test data as good reasons not to develop this system. We have more to offer than that, as a sport, as Base-jumpers, and as representatives of the parachute industry.

    We will produce the best product that we can and allow the people of the world to decide if it is something they want.

    Tom B. laid out a scenario that involved a character named Bob.
    If Bob is going to jump out a window with a parachute while his co-workers are walking down the steps, then he is either: A) a Base-jumper in denial, or B) he is a total idiot. Our design presents the very scenario Tom pointed out by exploding and destroying any idiot that lays hands on it.

    I feel that this is not the time to be counterproductive and use arguments and scenarios that are so unreal. The majority of opponents to this system come from the Base-jumper/parachutist ranks. What is it that makes you say that this is a bad idea? What are you so afraid of? That some people may live? That some people may die? That people may jump unnecessarily and die when they didnt have to? Make sure that the population wants to be taken care of before you start making decisions for them and disseminating information that is inaccurate, misleading, and downright dishonest.

    Litigation? Give me a break, people sue because they spill there coffee on themselves. I could get sued just for being alive. Talk to a drop zone, they deal with it so will we.

    The interviewer on Good Morning America told Jason that he would not jump Jasons parachute even if the only other choice was burning to death. Am I the only one that thinks that sounds stupid? Or is it one of those principle arguments? Maybe its just ego. I for one like the idea of having another choice.


    If anyone truly wants to know what it is we are doing, than all they need do is call and ask.
    Brian Choppin
    www.buildingescape.com



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