Just a quick question,
Are there a lot of Ace canopies out there or has production stopped on them? Just wondering because I keep meeting more jumpers and it doesn't seem to be used by many. The reason I'm asking is to compare some characteristics with other users, namely offheadings.
Thanks
Mike
I have an Ace 220 and love mine. Opens & flies great! I'd have no problems recommending one.
for what it is worth, my teacher and mentor both use ace canopies. They absolutey love that canopy.
I use a blackjack 260 myself, and also have a dagger 266 I use occasionally.
as I am a newbie, take what I say with a grain of salt
In my opinion the Ace is a great canopy. it's like a tuned up Mojo with huge control input and great onheading performance. With my experience the zp on the topskin seems to create more offheadings
base 952
Hello --
Consolidated Rigging Inc.'s canopies are very much in production and will be for years to come. You may purchase one through Consolidated Rigging -or- through their main distributor, Asylum Designs -- who now owns and makes the Perigee line of container/harness systems.
I own an Ace 280 with the ZP-composite upper surface and another Ace 280 that is all F-111. I am very familar with these canopies and would be glad to compare notes with you.
What specific questions do you have?
Also, if you'd like to talk to either Consolidated Rigging -or- Asylum Designs, they can be contacted at:
support@crmojo.com
support@asylumbase.com
I hope this helps,
Bryan
Ok, first off, I am a big fan of Asylum Designs and CR, (Asylum kicks ****ing ass, we own many rigs etc. check Marty out, he's the real deal), but here is my opinion of the Ace canopy platform based on much experience- myself as well as others. After at least 300+ jumps among our crew on Aces, we all sold ours to others. (We are 3 jumpers all with hundreds of jumps, 900-1000+ total jumps).
Slider down, the Ace is as solid as any non-vented canopy on the market. Fantastic glide, great slow speed sink in ability, solid flare, what more do you need. Terminal slider jumps, not terrible, but still a bit of a roll of the dice when it comes to heading. Nothing that will kill us (yet), but not exactly Mojo, Flik, Fox tried and true reliability. Now for the real problems that we experienced that forced 3 of us to abandon the canopy;
Sub-terminal slider jumps. I (and others that are close to me) have decided this is a real problem area with this canopy platform. Line twists, 180s, bad off headings, etc, time after time. Solid positions, proper pilot chuting, solid tracking (to say the least) and consistent packing. Still it is almost 50-50 as far as good headings are concerned.
One tree strike, (50 foot drop to solid rock with no injury), one wall strike resulting in serious injury, one cement strike resulting in unknown outcome serious injury, many line twists, many 100+ degree off-headings.
Packing styles were changed, containers were changed, manufactures changed velcro on tail pockets after claiming it was the problem (huh?), slider sizes were even played with. This is not just one skydiver with a few base jump experiences. These are logged jumps and you might even consider us test jumpers, with the test results coming out negative. (check out the slider sizes and line lengths and compare these to other canopies, see what you think).
We are not scientists in a control group type environment, we are real world BASErs who won't ever jump this canopy again. Not to say we have not run into many who love their Aces, just giving our opinion based on OUR experiences. Maybe we got a few canopies made on a Friday when PD sewers were in a hurry to get home and party for the weekend. Who knows.
I will not fly or recommend an Ace canopy to anyone I know or who asks me or my crew. Just my opinion. Sorry to diss a manufactuer, hope this comes off as purely opinion.
Just like your mother told you long ago, buyer beware.
The Mince Division
Offheading, Offheadings. Over the last 40 slider down jumps, ranging from static line, pca's- 450 feet, I've had 19 offheadings right and 6 left. Slider up I have 11 off right, with 5 being around 180-190 degrees.
Now to do my best to remain objective, I did catch the edge of the water at bridge day 2 years ago, wetting a small uneven portion of the canopy. I've also done many of the slider downs solo so I can only attest to my own body position during deployment. Dipping a shoulder on deployment, pitching too aggresively, and poor choice of wind direction/ conditions are all things I've been concience not to do. I've adjusted my packing as to how I set the nose, put it in the container... I've never played with the sliders or replaced the velcro on the tailpocket. Slider is the same as It was shipped with and the tailpocket is in very good condition.
What are some other options I can attempt before I go blaming a canopy for my unpredictable openings? Perhaps verify my slider size is the factory design spec?
Mike
Try switching the canopy to another container, and putting another canopy in that container.Originally Posted by Twoply2
In my experience, something like 75% of "gear induced offheadings" can be fixed by switching the canopy/container combination. I'm not sure why this is, I've just observed it many, many times.
Before you ditch the canopy, try switching containers, and try your current container with another canopy. That usually helps isolate problems.
I do not jump CR/Asylum gear for the moment. But the advice to change container is solid. This may fix a symptom of a problem but usually not the problem in it self. I like to try to fix the problem if it is possible to find it that is.
I have three rigs that I use for common basejumps (slider up/slider down). I had some problems with heading (well I still have but now it is evenly spread on the three rigs). One rig was more of a problem the others. I tried to switch canopies and it did not get much better (this rig is a early Prism). Then I got the suggestion not to put the tailpocket against the bottom of the container ... after I started to leave the tailpocket an inch (maybe a little more) "up" in the container to problem stopped, now I have the same off heading rate on all of my rigs
PerFlare
What are you doing with your nose for these subterminal jumps? I have found this to be the single biggest factor in determing the quality of the opening. The other factor relates to slider size and slider stowing.
Subterminal nose setting: After setting the clamped, cocooned canopy into the container, I check that the risers are lined up and even. Then I do the initial fold to expose the nose. I fold the material of the 3 cells on either side into 3 and a half folds. The folds are just shy of half the cocooned canopy width. This leaves the center cell's bottom skin/rib connection area (clitoral resembling) about 3-4 inches long from top of pack job to bottom skin/rib intersection. I have pulled the top skin of the center cell around the entire pack job as instructed on the mojo packing video. I've also pulled it just to the outside edges of the packjob. In either case I still was dealt an offheading. Anything stick out as a cause? I took some photos but I can't figure out how to shrink down the ****ing pictures to post them all so here's the most relevant I guess.
Your canopy looks like it was packed with an attention to detail...
Briefly, in my experience, the following issues are relevant to heading problems:
1) Is your container very small? Ideally, the container should conform to the pack job.
2) Are you sure your pilot chute is not orbiting after its toss? Is the bridle twisted a lot after you land? Is it apex vented? Is it attached symmetrically? Is the pilot chute staging properly after the toss?
3) I fold the stabilizers and have had nothing but great heading results doing this. The logic has always been that exposed stabilizers allow air to enter the canopy - almost always asymmetrically - before it reaches line stretch. The goal is to stage the opening and limit each stage to a single predominant variable that can be experimented with as needed.
4) I usually don't expose the nose so much. Some people feel this is fine and have some good results to show for it. My feeling is that it provides a location to torque the canopy (causing a rotation or turn in the packed canopy) on the way to line stretch. Usually I leave the center cell exposed only about 4 inches wide.
5) Inhibiting the slider by stowing it with a rubber band can have a dramatic effect, and this can be very canopy dependent.
6) The ACE from what I recall uses a low permeability para-glider type fabric (less permeable than F111). This may be a factor.
7) Do you have any ZP on the top skin? ZP is notorious for affecting the heading performance.
8) Are your lines DACRON or something different? Stretchy dacron lines are the best for reducing sensitivity to asymmetry in the opening process.
Last edited by 460; August 23rd, 2004 at 12:01 PM.
To address both Tom's and 460 advice at once,
Tom, when you say that removing direct control has helped you out, I'm assuming you mean helping out with offheadings. Remembering back to some guys who had a rubberband on their sliders, I think I may have seen something related and not known it. But I've never seen a rubberband wrapped opposite the tailgate location and secured a bite of the slider. Makes sense. I can see how that would slow down an opening, but would that help with an offheading? I know that one opening characteristic is going to alter another but don't know how speed of pressurization is factored in there. While packing, I move the slider into place, fold the canopy material between the A's B's and C's, cocoon, then do the primary stow before figure eighting the lines. Long story short is I've never used a direct control method.
460,
1) The container seems to fit snug and secure. No sloppiness or streching really.
2) Pilot chute is apex vented, 42", symetrically atttached that usually doesn't have more than a twist or two after landing. I've checked that right after landing a severe offheading. Not to say it didn't straighten itself out during canopy ride. As for after tossing, that I don't know if it stages itself immediatly. I'm usually the last one to go. Guess I should bathe more.
3) I fold the stabs one half fold and I agree with your point.
4) I will experiment with the mose settings more.
5) When you say dramatic effect I assume you mean positive with offheadings too?
6) Didn't know that about my own canopy.
7) No zp.
8) Black dacron lines. I believe I was told that the black dacron was a small bit thicker than the regular dacron. Factor? Truth?
Thanks for the help!
Last edited by Twoply2; August 25th, 2004 at 02:04 PM.
In general, I think they're related. Slower openings seem more prone to offheadings. But, I guess that's not a factor here.
You've got just about stumped TwoPly.
Some thoughts though:
1) yes, your dacron lines are fine.
2) you might want to try packing your pilot chute so you get a slightly slower pilot chute opening/pilot chute deployment. Ideally, you want the pilot chute inflating just above you and not to the side. If it inflates from the side, it can start orbiting somewhat. Have you thought about experimenting with going stowed to eliminate a factor related to shoulder lowering from going stowed. As you know, it can be easy to twist your body enough to affect you opening.
3) do two or three light rolls on the outer cells (which I think you do) and expose the center cell only about 4 inches wide.
4) i don't have any suggestions regarding the container since you're using a velcro rig. pin rigs on the other hand require a little care to ensure the canopy stays symmetric upon closing the container.
5) dramatic effect on stowing the slider: noticably slower opening, bad heading, sometimes line twist(s). Stowing the slider has to be done with CARE.
Hope this provides some food for thought...
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