Loop release/emergency pack opener?

[434]

Look at the tread at basejumper, and contribute with your own thoughts about the weekest point? The pilot chute and not the jumper!

http://basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1294243;sb=post_latest_reply;so=AS C;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unr ead

[hamsandwich]

Every scenario you described is caused by user error / poor rigging. To many that's not a problem that should be fixed by a more complex system.


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[434]

Every scenario you described is caused by user error / poor rigging. To many that's not a problem that should be fixed by a more complex system.


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Sometime it is shit happens to! I dont see any complex system in this, it is just the same you have trained in skydiving pulling your reserve handle! Is that so difficult if you have a pilot chute knot?

[Johnny Utah]

Look at the tread at basejumper, and contribute with your own thoughts about the weekest point? The pilot chute and not the jumper!

http://basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1294243;sb=post_latest_reply;so=AS C;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unr ead

Hi Paul,

Can you please post the topic here. I'd be happy to give my opinion on it, not that it would be of any worth to anyone.

Please understand that many jumpers don't go to Tom's site because he has mistreated so many jumpers for so long. I personally was banned 3 times from Tom's site and never once broke a forum rule there. He simply censors and bans jumpers that he doesn't like and Tom has shown himself to be bitterly jealous of certain talented jumpers as in the case of Miles, JT and Shane for example.

Some of us don't want our online experience to be bottled up by the moods and whims of the BASE Fake Aiello. As far as I know I may still be banned since the last time I posted on Tomdotcom. I was perma-banned because I disagreed with Tom on a technical subject. Tom doesn't like to appear as not knowing everything about BASE and when someone points out how Tom is wrong on a subject, Tom gets mad.

But hey, that forum gets a lot more skydiver traffic than this site so.....

[434]

I guess you still can look at the tread over there, and give your thoughts here! I just want the jumpers to give some thoughts about the weekest point of the equipment especially when it comes to wingsuitjumping!

[airdog07]

abby finally you sound like you know what your talking abut .........
if you make thing more complected your going to have more problem than it solve, spring pilot chute do hesitate just much as regular pilot chute and more bulk add to container, one thing the shrivel flaps for PC need reinventing I think with some thing that need less pressure ?. If you make gear that is full proof some one will come and prove that it's not, need to take time to pack you gear, get gear check and check other's no matter he has 2 jump or 5000 jump,
you can do every thing correct and still thing can go wrong.
in the airline the old saying "thing happen in three's"

[434]

Who was saying it would complicate anything! It is just a container opener, nothing else!

1. A handle placed at same spot as an reserve handle!
2. A Cable routed like an reserve cable!
3. A pin covered in a small plastic box securing the loop from falling out!
4. Or a knife in a plastic box ready to cut loop!

Scenario!
You have a pilot chute error/delay

1. You feel after one second there is something wrong
2. You pull the handle like any reserve handle!
3. Loop is free/cut
4. container is open
5. Shake the pack job out!


Anyone else who can think of some other solution? I dont want to hear it is not possible, it is going to make more problems! Think positive and be creative!

[lifewithoutanet]

Saw the thread over on the other site, specifically the points on magnets in lieu of velcro. One concern of entanglement that I don't always see raised is the addition of mass along the bridle. Magnets will certainly factor in. I don't think they'll have that much impact on the bridle once the PC is fully inflated, but leading up to that, I can see problems w/ a slack bridle and a hunk of mass.
-C.

[hamsandwich]

Who was saying it would complicate anything! It is just a container opener, nothing else!

1. A handle placed at same spot as an reserve handle!
2. A Cable routed like an reserve cable!
3. A pin covered in a small plastic box securing the loop from falling out!
4. Or a knife in a plastic box ready to cut loop!

Scenario!
You have a pilot chute error/delay

1. You feel after one second there is something wrong
2. You pull the handle like any reserve handle!
3. Loop is free/cut
4. container is open
5. Shake the pack job out!


Anyone else who can think of some other solution? I dont want to hear it is not possible, it is going to make more problems! Think positive and be creative!

Don't take my post hostily, I just think that there is a higher chance of a premature or a problem with the system than exists the chance of a problem with a two pin rig. If you're not proficient at packing your rig and keeping a somewhat consistent tension then buy a velcro rig, http://www.asylumbase.com/perigeeII.htm.

You're loop could be released early and now you have a horseshoe, next to a cliff wall. Maybe you're proximity flying. now you're spraypainting the wall with your poop and blood.

So here's my thoughts anyway if you want to try it. Maybe some of this is good for your testing?

-Don't use a knife or cutting system for the loop. Knives near parachutes is a bad idea. You won't be able to plan for every possibility.

-look at the WLO toggles that Apex is making. The latest version work pretty well. the pin would just route to a handle instead.

-just the bottom loop would be sufficient. Once pressure is released there the top pin will come out easier.

-the way we most pack, it will be difficult to put the loop onto the backpad of the container. i'd run a long straight pin on the underside of the bottom flap and then have it run outside the flap to a hard housing thats then channeled under another strip of cordura so not a snag point and route to the side you want. maybe up along the lateral to mlw and then pull up instead of down? hard to route from the bottom pin up over the should and then to MLW.

-use bungee/safety stow as the loop to there always tension as well as give. BTW- if you just use bungee loops and nothing else, you may find that's all you need to feel more comfortable about possible pc in tows.

-Have you seen the size of a pilot chute spring? Do you realize the size of spring you need to push the entire pack job out? Just use a 2 parachute system if you're at the point of needing a spring to push your whole pack job out, 'just in case'.

i hope thats positive and constructive. somwhere in this rambling theres something dumb i didnt think of though.

-

[434]

Bump it up again!

There is no spring mechanism on this solution, and I doubt it would be any good for anything in base as far Im thinking of the skydiving spring system!

[lifewithoutanet]

Ditto on the bungee loops, but if you choose to route something to the underside of the closing loop, I'd suggest yellow cutaway cable, not a straight pin. The eyelet on a pin will be more likely to hang up in whatever you choose to route it through than a pliable bit of cable. Also, in a packed rig, it will be difficult to gear-check that pin to ensure that the pin eyelet hasn't been pushed through a too-large loop or is otherwise obstructed. You can easily feel for the excess cable, though, just as you would gear-check a cutaway system.
-C.

[Weightless]

just some random thinking,

What if there was a cutter similar to a cypres unit on each closing loop sitting behind a cover or flap. Wired to a battery in your leg strap / "emergency handle" depending on the size of the battery. Activated by a pressure switch in an emergency handle and a switch to prevent any accidental firings.

This would be a final emergency device, small and simple and with low maintenance. It would also force jumpers to use it in a last case scenario without getting reliant or complacent on a pin style system as cutting the closing loops would require a trip to your local rigger.

What is everyones thoughts?

[lifewithoutanet]

just some random thinking,

What if there was a cutter similar to a cypres unit on each closing loop sitting behind a cover or flap. Wired to a battery in your leg strap / "emergency handle" depending on the size of the battery. Activated by a pressure switch in an emergency handle.

This would be a final emergency device, small and simple and with low maintenance. It would also force jumpers to use it in a last case scenario without getting reliant or complacent on a pin style system as cutting the closing loops would require a trip to your local rigger.

What is everyones thoughts?

So, now you have a battery, a razor. It's not like a Cypress, that is a Cypress, albeit one w/ a manual switch... Sounds like COMPLEXITY to me. This is not skydiving.

-C.

[Weightless]

I can see what your saying, accidental firings, horse shoe malfunctions etc etc. Personally i don't believe in fixing the problem rather fixing what caused the problem.

Just an idea for the people who were looking for a system of freeing their closing loops in an emergency.

[stitch]

If this loop release system arguement is directed at a recent incident, then all I could have seen it do was create a massive horseshoe.

A one handed AFF-style BOC/ROL release would be the more logical option.

[Weightless]

Previous incidents like this come to mind.

BASE Jumping Forums: BASE Jumping: General BASE: Wingsuit deployment problems (http://www.basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2891689;sb=post_latest_reply;so=AS C;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unr ead)

The problem lies in picking the type of malfunction to use any system as releasing the loops with any system in the wrong situation could cause a massive malfunction.

[stitch]

just the bottom loop would be sufficient. Once pressure is released there the top pin will come out easier.That isn't absolutely true. Young Jarrett from Washington demonstrated through a series of photos, that the top loop could hang-up in a full head-down position.

[whatever]

How about this?:

An RWS/UPT/CPS/WHATEVERBILLCALLSITNEXT skyhook type device that is secured (with sealthread or velcro or some such) somewhere like the inside of the topflap or a sideflap, on which you hook a loop on your normal bridle to, with the hook oriented such that a normal PC deployment will just pull the normal bridle from the hook, followed by a normal deployment.

This skyhook type device will be attached to a secondary bridle, which will be attached to a secondary PC and yellow cable/s that run to the inside side/s of the closing loop/s. This way, the secondary PC will open the container if the primary PC did not.

This secondary PC will be packed somewhere out of the way, say maybe a flat outside pocket on the topflap or sideflap (maybe packed very flat and sandwiched inside a topflap or sideflap). This PC will have a handle attached to it, that will be used to open said pocket and extract the PC for a PC throw.

It makes some sense to put this whole backup system on the left of the rig, so as to be out the way of the normal PC etc.

It also makes some sense to make this lastchance PC operated by the left hand.

I would make this lastchance PC large too, say 42" or bigger.

This entire backup system would be removable, so you do not need the extra complication if there's no way you would have the time to use it.

It might also lend itself to being a possible retrofit to most containers.

[434]

A new tread on the same issue from another forum member? This is the third person thinking about the same issue, who posting about an emergency pack opener. Is this something we need for the future? Any other good ideas? Is it a problem, or was it just lack of experience? I felt at the time it was a wingsuit problem.

"Closing loop cutter???
I read some thread discussing some mechanisms for opening rigs in case of pc in tow mals and didn't see anything that seemed simple. I am sure its an idiotic idea I have but I still wanted to suggest it. You know how modern aad's use a ballistically powered cartridge to cut the loop? It would seem that using that cartridge and hooking it up to a conventional cut away handle type pillow that if pulled triggers the cartridge might be a very effective and reliable way to open the container in case of a pc in tow malfunction. "

BASE Jumping Forums: BASE Jumping: BASE Technical: Closing loop cutter??? (http://basejumper.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2920628;page=unread#unread)


This mail was my first attempt to get an rig with the option I wanted in October 2003. I did send to 3 different producers. Not the best explenation about what I want, but I tried. One producer tried to make one for me, but I did understand it was very complex to make.


"I would like to have a new rig for wingsuit flights.

I want to have an loop release system. instead of the flat metal disk in front of the knot.I would like to have the uppertunity to realeese the loop with a pull like you do with a reserve handle, with a cut cable (in a hardhousing?). I think then it should be an one pin rig (or a 2 pin with the closing at the same side flap), and with out the corners at the bottom. that can increase the vacum effect. I think the vacum effect could be the biggest problem, but with out any corners, it should be easy to shake the pack job out. I want a kind of a system like I try to explain here, in case of pilot chute hesitation

I am interested to know if someone of you alredy thought about it, or one of you are interested to build one for me?

On the rig I want sadle bags on the leg straps, and a top mouted opening where I can stuff stash bag and gloves etc ( a little bigger room than normal). But the details can we take after we have discussed if you want to build one for me at a reasonable price.

Excuse my bad english.

Regards"



I did get one reply, and some more explanation needed.

> I didnt explain very well what I wanted, so I will try again.
>
> After Lucas died, we are several that have been thinking about a extra realese system in case of pilot chute mailfunction. The best options we have came to, is to have an realese at the bottom of the loop wich will be an cut cable, going trew the loop. This is the scenario: You pull the pilot, the pilot ends up in the turbulence, and for a second you realize you dont have the pilot out in the airflow. Case one is just a normal delay in the burble. Case two is the pilot have been in the burble and you got a pilot mailfunction. What you need to do then is use the cut handle to realese the closing loop from undernite, the loop is free and you can shake the pack job out. Las saturday a friend of me was skydiving, and got a knot on the pilot chute, the bridle was fully extracted but didnt have enough pullforce to get the pin out. I dont want to experince this while basejumping a single container. And I think the risk is higher on big wingsuit flights, and if you pull at 150 m going less than 25 m a sec you have time to realese the the loop, and might get the packjob out.
>
> An another thing I would like to have! Is an bridle that shrivle of like and shrivle flap on a welcro. On the Birdman S3 I would like to have the pilot on the leg to ease the pull. but if you are going fast horisontal the welcro could be hard to pull when your pilot chute is going out behind you. Then it would be nice to have a foot extra bridle and a shrivle system. A another salution is the shrinkle the bridle on the leg, but I think it would be better to have an shrivle bridle.
>
> The loop should be an sew one with out an knot. The cable shuld be in a soft/hardhousing system from the place you normaly have your reserve, and after the loop it should be protected in the end by an hard/soft housing.
>
>
>
> Hope I managed to clear some few things here! Please give me an answer if I was clear of the point or not. Are you coming to KL this year?
>
> Regards


My 3. attempt to get what I wanted

"Hi xxxx!

I am just wondering if this is something you think sounds like an bad idea, and you are not taking my question seriously. I know that my english is not the best, and when I have an idea, the pictures are so clear, and it is so simple, that it is hard to understand it could be seen totally different than I do myself.
On the other hand, I have already discussed it with an rigger in norway, and he is willing to make one system for me, out of one of my old rigs.

Please take your time to look at this, and give me an feedback! I want a realese system , and if you want me to eplain in more details, just let me now!

A reserve/ cut handle located on the left chest side. Connected to a cut cable in a hard/soft housing, going to the loop over your shoulder undernite the flap, and protect the loop from falling out (replace the metal disk, and the loop should be a sewn one. no knot). If you have pulled your pilot, and you have an delay for any reason, you can pull your "reserve handle" that will realese you loop from undernite and you container is open. I have spoken to several other jumpers, and we think it would be an safety step foreward for especially wing suit jumping."

[nicknitro71]

Making some soft housing and a skydiving-style cutaway handle is not much of a big deal but seriously, if the PC cannot generate enough force to slide the pins out, what makes you think that once the loops are gone you will have a clean extraction? Besides, who pulls above 1000' in base?

Maybe jumpers should just be a bit more careful packing and maintaining their gear.

As rigger and manufacturer, it seems to me this is a solution in the search of a problem.

Let the gimmicks flood the skydiving market, keep base as simple as possible!

[434]

We will see what the future will bring. You are right, the skydving equipment is complex, and have many potential failures. Anyway it would have been interesting to see a jumper i tried after braking up from a full flight and do an emergency pull with a system like that.