Question

[guest]

New to the sport and was woundering about using a raven 4. What would be the difference between a raven 4 and a base main.
thanks
M

[imported_mknutson]

A raven 4 will work very well. The issue is the re-inforcement with certain parts of the canopy. Like bridle attachement, etc...
You will also have to add a tail pocket to the main.

I am cheap! I want the best possible deal for my money!!!!

So here is what I figured worked for me:
The cost of a Raven III or IV was ~$400.00 USD (a decent one).
Tail pocket and other re-enforcements, ~$150.00 USD

That means about $550.00 USD for a used Raven III/IV that has about 100 base jumps left if you are lucky!

For $600 to $800 USD you can get a Mojo/Fox with ~ 100 BASE Jumps on it and keep it for long time.

You really don't save that much on a Raven than a BASE canopy. If this is just a water canopy, then Right on! But if it is on the front line, go with the re-enforced bomber canopy!



BTW. If you are new to the sport, you should really register with "this" forum and keep coming back!

--
Thanks

Mick Knutson ;-)
BLiNC Magazine

"Everything you ever wanted to know about BASE Jumping, but didn't know who to ask."
--

[Mike]

Mick is right about the tradeoffs with the cost. You'll spend about $200 on the canopy to make it base-worthy. So unless you already have the thing, you would be better off with a Fox or something. But first...

Are we talking about a Super Raven or an older (not so super) Raven? There is a HUGE difference, especially when using a slider-mesh or sail. Older ravens have a nasty tendency to snivel...a lot. The super ravens open faster and have more reinforcement especially around the bridle att. pt. which is very important. Here's how to tell the difference. Check the end cells for the 'Raven' logo, only newer Super Ravens have this. I believe Precision made the switch around '88, so check the DOM as well.

A word about ravens in general. I used a super raven III for my first 50 or so flicks and I love it. There's quite a difference in flight characteristics between a raven and a base canopy. A raven is a little faster, more ground-hungry, more responsive(it will turn on a dime). Therefore they are a little tricky and unforgiving, so use a BIG one(depending on weight), a raven 4 is 282 sq. ft. and that's the biggest one they make. They are difficult to sink into tight landing areas, so I usually use mine on antenna jumps, or anything with a wide-open landing, where I can face into the wind.

[Pauly]

My two cents. I just got a Raven III and love the ##### out of it.. I got it brand new and did the mods Mick talked about. It opens yesterday and lands like a cotton ball. If ya need a tail-pocket or mesh slider I got plans for them or can make them for ya.. Good luck and happy flicks.

Peace,
Pauly










>Mick is right about the tradeoffs
>with the cost. You'll
>spend about $200 on the
>canopy to make it base-worthy.
> So unless you already
>have the thing, you would
>be better off with a
>Fox or something. But
>first...
>
>Are we talking about a Super
>Raven or an older (not
>so super) Raven? There
>is a HUGE difference, especially
>when using a slider-mesh or
>sail. Older ravens have
>a nasty tendency to snivel...a
>lot. The super ravens
>open faster and have more
>reinforcement especially around the bridle
>att. pt. which is very
>important. Here's how to
>tell the difference. Check
>the end cells for the
>'Raven' logo, only newer Super
>Ravens have this. I
>believe Precision made the switch
>around '88, so check the
>DOM as well.
>
>A word about ravens in general.
> I used a super
>raven III for my first
>50 or so flicks and
>I love it. There's
>quite a difference in flight
>characteristics between a raven and
>a base canopy. A
>raven is a little faster,
>more ground-hungry, more responsive(it will
>turn on a dime).
>Therefore they are a little
>tricky and unforgiving, so use
>a BIG one(depending on weight),
>a raven 4 is 282
>sq. ft. and that's the
>biggest one they make.
>They are difficult to sink
>into tight landing areas, so
>I usually use mine on
>antenna jumps, or anything with
>a wide-open landing, where I
>can face into the wind.
>

[BASE359]

I would have to lean in the direction of buying a dedicated BASE canopy. I have jumped Ravens for BASE for the last 13 years, but the time has come for me to go FOX!!

BASE359

[guest]

Hello M,

If you have a Raven IV, Precision Aerodynamics (the manufacturer) says it is 282 sq. ft. in size. However, if you go by the PIA measurement system it comes in at 266 sq. ft. (There are two different systems used to measure canopies in the 1980s, and they both gave different results).

I usually ignored both of those standards and used Rigging Innovations' numbers as they seemed more accurate across the board, however R.I. doesn’t have a measurement for the Raven IV. (What's up, no fatties in California)?

You might also have a newer version of the Raven IV, called the Super Raven IV. (Introduced in March of 1988). If you aren't sure which one you have, you can tell the difference by looking at the reinforcement tapes on the ribs. (Look inside the cells).

The Raven has single vertical tapes while the Super Raven uses "crowfoot" type reinforcement. (Three individual tapes fanned out over the rib). This configuration is a good deal stronger.

Be aware that early Ravens opened a tad slow (for a reserve) with a sail slider installed. In fact, between the Raven and the Super Raven, Precision introduced the "Bikini" slider to make early Ravens open a bit faster. While they did have a slight snivel problem, they weren’t as bad as some others, like the Unit canopy.

However, when deployed without a slider, or with a mesh slider Ravens worked okay, as far as I know.

Here's one thing to consider. If you do indeed have an original Raven the canopy has to be at least 22 years old. (Older than you)? And, believe me, when you are standing on the edge, that's a lot of baggage to be holding . . .

Even though I sell BASE equipment for a living I was in your same position at one time. (Don't be too envious, I live in a little trailer and have a small B&W TV). I too had the urge to jump everything in sight, but little money to support those urges. So, I won't go too far in talking you out of using your Raven for BASE jumping because before the advent of commercial BASE canopies I did the same thing.

But, here’s how I came to the conclusion a real BASE canopy is better:

In 1987 I retired my trusty old Para-Flite Cruislite when I started to put new repairs over the old repairs.

Now what?

I looked around and realized gear is going in the wrong direction. Skydivers are demanding lighter gear. Lighter meant taking out the reinforcement. So gone now are the squares of the late 70s and early 80s that would go a thousand jumps and never break a sweat. (Or break anything else for that matter).

The only viable alternative in the mid 1980s are the CRW canopies of the day. At least they have a bit more reinforcement in the critical areas (larger leading and trailing edge tapes, a beefier bridle attachment point, fatter lines, etc). And, at the time, CRW canopies are the only new 7-cells still in production except for reserves.

I bought and put around 40 BASE jumps on a Precision CRW canopy called the Interceptor. Frankly, I bought it cause I thought it had a cool name. But it turned out alright and I probably would have kept jumping it if commercial BASE canopies hadn't made their appearance.

In my little comparison below, it's only fair to note that this is very unfair to PD and Precision as they don't build canopies that are meant for BASE jumping. Used as intended, they are both fine products.

Now, a word from our sponser . . .

Let's start with the fact you can purchase a fully dedicated BASE canopy, a FOX 265, for only $1090. (FOX 285 $1150, FOX 245 $1075, FOX 225 $1075, FOX 205 $1055, FOX 185 $1025). Ask about our great package deals!

Okay, I hear you, what's the big difference between skydiving and BASE parachutes?

Let's take a look . . .!

Spanwise Reinforcement . . .
All FOX canopies have spanwise reinforcement. This is a "must have" in a BASE canopy as a complete failure of the wing is un-thinkable. The only Ravens that have this feature are the newest Super Ravens ("M" models) but they don't have a bridle attachment, so no freefall for you!

PD seven cells don't have the spanwise reinforcement either. (Except for the DRAGON, a PD built BASE canopy from Vertigo, and I'll assume Vertigo's new canopy, the DAGGER, built by Parachute Labs (Jump Shack) has it too). Oh, Mario ?

Aspect Ratio . . .
All FOX canopies are low aspect ratio. This is a measurement of the span of the canopy to it's chord (or length Vs width). Low aspect ratio canopies provide better on heading performance with all other things being equal. In other words, for BASE jumping a boxy shape is better. (We learned this from jumping nine-cell canopies for BASE in the later part of the 1980s, read that as BIG MISTAKE). We also tested 5-cell canopies, which opened beautifully, but you'd always take a pasting on the landing . . .

The FOX is a blend of opening performance and landing performance, with the bias toward openings. Raven and PD canopies are more biased toward landings so they are built with a "medium" aspect ratio. For this reason the proper size FOX will be a bit larger than the proper size Raven or PD used at the DZ.

Another problem with medium aspect ratio canopies (besides the fact, I've heard several experienced BASE jumpers say they are too fast) like the Raven and the PD is when you add larger pilot chutes, 42 inches and above, the flight characteristics begin to degrade rapidly i.e. the end cells will try to out fly the center of the canopy that's being retarded by the drag of the pilot chute. This can occur right after deployment or when coming out of a turn.

Bridle Attachment Point. . .
These were real problems in the early years of BASE jumping. When a skydiver deploys at terminal velocity the grommet in their deployment bags takes most of the initial snatch force created by the pilot chute. BASE jumpers don't use a deployment bag so this force is transmitted directly to the bridle attachment point and this is made even worse by the fact that BASE pilot chutes are larger. The most common repair for a BASE rigger in the mid 1980s was in responce to, "my bridle is ripping out!"

The FOX comes with a bridle attachment point you can hang a truck on. There are three bartacks on each side of the attachment point, where PD uses only one on each side. Six bartacks is overkill, but overkill is the rule we live by.

If you don't inspect your canopy often, and one of those PD bartacks fail, you will lose the whole bridle altogether. Again, Ravens (the newest ones)have no bridle attachment at all.

Tail Pocket . . .
A FOX canopy has an integral tail pocket (there are a few ways to install a tail pocket, some better than others). You can sew it down on an already existing canopy or, you can reinforce the area and then sew it down or, you can add the tail pocket to the canopy while it's in production (and the trailing edge is open).

The last way is the best way as you don't need to un-pick the trailing edge, or worse, just sew the tail pocket down (along with the upper and lower surfaces, ugh)!

In any case, without opening the tail, the tail pocket will start to fail (it's stitching will anyway) in just a few jumps. And, it will require constant inspections and repair.

Stabilizers . . .
The FOX is constructed with stabilizers that are smaller than either the PD or the Raven. This does two important things. Crosswinds won't effect the canopy as much and the smaller stabilizer is also an aid to packing simply by not being in the way so much. Smaller stabs also allow the canopy to vent more air and this makes for the ability to make steeper approaches in deep brakes. There is less tendency to float up and over your target.

Bottom Line . . .
We all (us old school guys, anyway) jumped Ravens, Cruislites, Pegasus, and Units mainly because they were cheap and available. And there was no such thing as a store bought BASE canopy. So, you can certainly BASE jump your 22 year old Raven. And most likely you'll be alright.

But, just in case I did my job, here's my phone number. (909) 940 1324.

Here some other numbers: Yes, I'm serious about you getting a real BASE canopy . . . even if it's not from us.

Consolidated Rigging, Mojo BASE canopy, 916-652-9111

Vertigo, Dagger BASE Canopy, 904 943-9583

C-ya,
Nick Di Giovanni, BASE 194
Basic Research
Sales Manager

[guest]

Hey Nick - time to change the batteries in your calculator, dude. Original Ravens would be 12 years old. Still a good point, along with many others. . .

[Mike]

"Again, Ravens (the newest ones)have no bridle attachment at all."

You're talking about the Dash M series of Raven reserves. The Super Ravens, which Precision still manufactures, do have a bridle attachment point and a darn good one too. The attachment point is reinforced with (I think) 9/16" type I tape, tensile strength 500 lb. 3 bartacks on each side.

Another thing to consider is where the attachment point is located. The bridle attachment on a Fox, for example, is above and directly between the B and C line groups. This puts even tension on both the front and rear riser line groups when the canopy hits line-stretch. On a Super Raven, the bridle attaches directly above the C line group, which only supports the rear lines, leaving the A's and B's (both front risers) behind. Then again, the raven was never intended to be free-packed, but it works nonetheless.

[guest]

I started with a 5 cell Strato Flyer that was great. Then went to another 5 cell called the Kestral that I liked even better. I went and got bigger by 15 pounds and needed a larger canopy so used my Super Raven for awhile (without the mods). It worked just fine but quickly started to get pretty clapped out.
I just bought a new Fox and find it comforting that it has all the bells and whistles that have come from the years of dedicated R&D.

[guest]

>New to the sport and was
>woundering about using a raven
>4. What would be the
>difference between a raven 4
>and a base main.
>thanks


As the manufacturer the Mojo, I can say that both the Mojo (and I would venture, the FOX) came into being because we (CR and BR) were actively BASE jumping and discovering the shortcomings of both new manufacture skydiving 7-cells and the older ones available. Although, I do not think you will find much argument to the statement that a BASE specific canopy will do the job better, it comes down to what you are comfortable and familiar with.
By this I mean, given a good starting condition, the proper modifications, and adequate time to learn and refine the canopy's performance, a Raven will treat you well.

What a Raven, or any skydiving canopy, will not give you is the durability and longevity of a BASE canopy.

Hope this gives a little insight.

Adam

Consolidated Rigging, Inc.
916 652-8111
http//:www.crmojo.com

[guest]

you wrote a very correct forthwrite description of old raven foibles, then included,

"more responsive(it will turn on a dime)."

he he he
first time i ever heard that description 8-).

i'm always amazed at how much toggle input is required and how slowly my ravens turn compared with what we skydive today.
no i don't jump speedy ellipticals, just lightnings.

stay safe,

kleggo

[Mike]

It turns on a dime compared to a base specific canopy. I weigh 160 and jump a raven III, it will hook a 180 3 times as fast as my fox 245. I think I can attribute that to its higher aspect ratio and faster descent rate.