Space's points about the basics of BASE

[guest]

The recent discussion about Schlefy's death regarding a basic misconception is disheartening,
and bad techniques (which were corrected 10 to 15 years ago) may be more common among today's jumpers than one thinks.

There seems to be two or three options here:

1) encourage experienced jumpers to say something. Personally, I wouldn't think I would have to even raise this point!

2) encourage low timers to seek out knowledge. What about the jumpers who are isolated and reinvent the wheel? The internet may be there only knowledge source.

3) design a basic FAQs of generally accepted principles so that these newcomers won't needlessly endanger themselves.

Walt Appel wrote some good articles years ago that could use some updating. Perhaps there should be a link or repository here on the BASE board of basic BASE information.

[guest]

I was recently jumping with a friend from back east (I'm out west) and we were packing our rigs before the trip. He noticed that I was putting a tailgate on my lines (switching from slider up to off) and he said, "I have to get me one of those."
I said, "you mean you're not jumping with a tailgate?" He said, "well, sometimes I use something to hold the brake lines." I couldn't believe it! I said, "you like playing Russian Roulette?"

This guy has about 100 BASE jumps and he jumps with a group of friends who all have this same mentality regarding holding the brake lines for deployment.

I may be new to the sport, but the advances that have been made in the last few years should be implemented...

573

[Mike]

That reminds me of the time I spent a week in Moab with the late great Earl Redfern. Here's a guy with about 1000 Base jumps; he owned one rig, a homemade container with a modified PD 7-cell. We were packing after a jump, and he was totally amazed by the tailgate I was using. He had never seen one before.

I think it's important for any jumper to have the best gear available. But it's also important that a jumper feels entirely confident on the edge. A lot of us novices in this sport might say we would never jump without a tailgate, or a base-specific canopy, or with a (cough) skydiving rig. But Earl made a thousand, yes, a THOUSAND jumps without a tailgate, and without a base-specific canopy.

I'm not saying we should abandon our shiny new foxes and 2-pin containers. But a lot of jumpers feel comfortable with the equipment and techniques they used 10 years ago, and for good reason if they're still alive. Don't be surprised if the latest gadget is slow to catch on with this group.

[guest]

i dont know where earl got these "thousand base jumps", but I've been around base for 7 years, never heard of him till last year, in Moab. Never saw him the previous 5 years in Moab. Anyone who puts a thousand jumps on a base canopy, ANY base canopy should be wondered about.
ever heard the saying 'you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink'. I am a hungry base jumper, I search out the latest technology. I do this for my own benifit, because I am selfish, and I want to live a long time. The info is there, let those who want it seek it out. Sound tough? good. No one has to want for info, No one has to want for good equipment. Must I remind you, ones willingness to take chances denotes a mind set, a willingness to accept less then perfect. Earl didnt use good gear, nor good judgement.............Earl is dead(RIP). Gee, get the correlation. Ever hear of personal responsibility? Everyone should teach Personal responsibility.
Brian

[guest]

This is true and I agree... However, the tailgate, the multi, new base specific canopies, and other new gear innovations are not the point.

But anyone (if Schlefy actually did this) who jumps with the line mod or doesn't route the brake lines through the slider WHILE JUMPING (MESH) SLIDER UP is looking at disaster. Even the old
BASE magazines from the 80's to early 90's discussed these points, and that's why I'm so interested in scanning them in and making them available on the web.

Cu

[guest]

Brian,

I never met the guy so I can't pass judgement on him but the way you wrote the post sounds like he died through being a dangerous jumper;

"Earl didnt use good gear, nor good judgement.............Earl is dead(RIP). Gee, get the correlation"

As far as I was aware he died in a plane crash, ie totally unrelated to BASE.

I personally agree with all your points re taking an interest in learning and searching for the best technology but I think it's pretty poor to take an unrelated subject and start making parallels to a guys death.

Just my opinion, take it onboard or leave it, up to you.

Craig

[Mike]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-01 AT 08:46 PM (PST)[p]OK, let's just say Earl had "a lot" of base jumps.

But who cares? Simply out of respect, I will not argue with you over the merits of a dead man, whom neither one of us knew well enough. Back to the point...

I think it's pretty low what "573" said to his buddy about the tailgate. i.e. "You like playing russian roulette?" It isn't necessary to talk down to other jumpers simply because they don't use the same gear or techniques as you. All that does is undermine that jumper's confidence. I think that is the worst thing you can do to a guy, next to packing him a lineover.

Sure, the tailgate is pretty much standard issue. I'm also surprised and a little confused when I meet jumpers who do not utilize this seemingly universal technique. But try not to be so damn condescending and maybe they will be more responsive to learning something new.

[guest]

Hey Brian:

Does this mean no one's a real base jumper until YOU'VE heard of him?

Give me a break, pup. Earl was jumping antennas in Georgia since before you started skydiving, and his climbing accomplishments dwarf anything you have done or ever will do in base jumping.

Beyond that, the writer did not say Earl put 1,000 jumps on ONE CANOPY -- he said Earl made 1,000 jumps without a tailgate or BASE-specific canopy.

Thus is your assumption unwarranted, your insinuation uncalled for, your need for remedial reading obvious... and when it comes to personal responsibility I can think of several of your IPBC accomplices who need to revisit that concept (and several others)a lot more than Earl ever did.

Beyond that is your apparent utter ignorance about the manner of Earl's death, which was not BASE-related, and he wasn't even the pilot in command of the plane that crashed.

And beyond all of that is your contention that the chances YOU take are somehow more legitimate and "reasonable" than those taken by Earl because he didn't use a tailgate.

Thanks for the comedy, though. I haven't laughed so hard at a post in months.

[guest]

I can't believe that almost every posting on this board ends up being about who knows who,and who knows more about how someone died, which would be useful information it was actually about BASE jumping. But instead it becomes about who's more right because they know a little bit more about a thorn in another person's ass.

This is another excellent posting which sculpts itself into a forum of negative energy which leads me to believe that there are some pretty unhappy souls out there! Perhaps the first thing on chris's excellent list is that old crusty spirits rejeuvanate themselves and find some love and happiness so that they can bring their positive contributions to the board.
I thought the original posting was a really great forum for information sharing. This board had some awesome "information sharing" a couple of months ago. Since then it has been dominated by who's who in the zoo, and notorious accomplishments which really means zippo to the old universe. It is a sad day when this activity is lost to an image rather than the vision.

As it stands it is hard enough to find good positive experienced BASE Jumpers donating their information about BASE jumping on this board. Perhaps they have all but left, except for a few which ask the question... Is my posting constructive to the subject at hand.

On the edge of love, happiness, and a perhaps one day...a building. Falling can only be as good as tripping if you're in your pajamas:) C-YA

CYGNUS

[guest]

Try as he might, Robin couln't hold back for any longer. He just had to spew on someone. I agree that I's not good to bust on dead jumpers, but I also see Brian's point. There is great gear out there and a good base jumper is a thinking base jumper (nugget by AP). Seek out info, learn all you can, and still just get by in this crazy "sport".

Behave Robin, just because Brian jumps with your new friends Ill Vision, doesn't mean he deserves any less of your new, friendlier personality than anyone else.

Peace

[Mike]

You're right, the original posting lost its momentum. This happens all the time. After all, it is a discussion board. This is how people discuss things, as disfunctional as it may be. We tend to go off on tangents and change the subject a lot.

The problem is that some people can't help themselves from posting some mindless, irrelevant drivel to an otherwise thoughtful idea simply because of a personal grudge.

Nothing is stopping anyone from reposting the original thread...

[guest]

I said to my buddy, "Do you like playing Russian Roulette?" The reason I said this makes me think back to all the videos I have seen of slider off jump lineovers (most likely due to no tailgate or similar devices, because this was pre-tailgate video)- which were much more common back in the day before people started to hold the lines back for opening. I wasn't trying to be condescending in any way, I just wanted him to think about what he was doing. Maybe it was a poor analogy that I used, but the probablity of a lineover without holding the brake lines back greatly increases the chanes for a lineover. I just want my friend to live and have fun, I don't want to see him spin into the ground on a low jump that doesn't really allow time to clear a lineover - then for me to have to scrape him up does not add to the fun.

Why don't you ask Mark Hewitt or Don Swaze how they feel about lineovers.

Anyway, sounds to me like you have some self- esteem or insecurity issues - another condesending remark aimed at you...HA HA!

[base311]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-01 AT 12:25 PM (PST)[p]Dear Mr. Choppin,

Gee... I just jumped Earl's canopy off of a tower last night. It worked fine for me - perfect on heading performance - good pressurization - good ldg right where I wanted to put it. It's a solid canopy and no, it doesn't have a thousand jumps on it.

How come you gotta come in here and slam Earl around? You sure are quick to judge. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" What's that supposed to mean? Sometimes the water tastes like sheeet or has impurities in it... did you ever stop to think that his decision to NOT use a tailgate was a personal decision that he worked through for himself? Just because you gotta have the latest greatest doesn't mean everyone else does. Sometimes new technology can kill you.

Somehow you tried to correlate Earl's failure to use a tailgate (or his use of a skydiving canopy for BASE) with his dying as a passenger in a plane crash. That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Oh so maybe you meant that his decision to not use a tailgate was somehow a reflection on his level of preparedness (or lack thereof) or his mindset? Earl just trusted his god, his simple set of gear, his simple packjob, his skill and his experience. He also had balls made of unobtainium(a rare alloy). He made over 1000 BASE jumps with no injuries; I think that speaks for itself.

To address the, "I've never heard of [[Earl]] until last year," comment that you made - there are lots of folks out jumping whom you never hear of and never see - but that doesn't mean they don't exist or that they're not out there jumping their arses off. Further, Earl was one of those jumpers who steadily chipped away at the stone(racking up jump numbers for the allusion-challenged). When Earl's mother handed me his BASE rig after his death, it was packed. Earl was always ready to go make a BASE jump.

Finally, I have one last comment. You made the statement that, "...ones (sic) willingness to take chances denotes a mind set, a willingness to accept less then (sic) perfect." If you think you're not taking a chance with your perfect gear when you huck your perfect self off of an object, then you have seriously deluded your perfect self. Murphy may just bite your butt someday (but I do sincerely hope not). Doesn't matter how prepared you are - it's still roulette. But then, living is roulette. And as far as accepting personal responsibility I have but one thing to say to you: AMFYOYO!

c-ya!
Gardner Sapp
BASE311

[base311]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-01 AT 12:40 PM (PST)[p]NEWBIES BEWARE - THE RIGGING TECHNIQUES MENTIONED IN THIS POST ARE GATHERED FROM READING RECENT POSTS ON THIS BOARD REGARDING A RECENT FATAL ACCIDENT - I WOULD RECOMMEND CAUTION WHEN READING THIS POST AS SOME OF THE THINGS MENTIONED ARE CONSIDERED BY _MANY_ AS A BAD IDEA.

That having been said, there is a possible scenario that I thought of which can be easily de-bunked by the right person(s). The problem is I don't know how much first-hand knowledge there is/was surrounding this event.

We all want to learn from mistakes - our own as well as other's. Among all of the discussion stemming from Schlefy's death, I have read that:

1. some people make slider down jumps with the steering lines routed outside of the slider grommets but routed through the keeper rings(they made a conscious choice to NOT use the line-mod);

2. some people have made slider down jumps without securing their sliders to their risers;

3. jumping a canopy slider up without the brake lines through the slider grommets is considered a gross rigging error;

4. space mentioned that often times the authorities make it difficult to inspect gear immediately post-accident - if at all;

Okay, based upon all of this, is it not possible that Schlefy was packed slider down without employing the line-mod and without (either intentionally or unintentionally) tying the slider down? What I am getting at is this: I want to believe that he did not make the gross error of packing slider up without routing the steering lines through the slider grommets. From what I've been told about him he was a very capable individual. Is it possible that in all of the ensuing fray following the accident - is it possible that the slider-up-misrouted-steering-lines-diagnosis was reached in error? Is it possible that he intended to jump slider down and either his slider rode up the lines during deployment or after the rig was handled post-accident? Is it possible that there has been a misdiagnosis here? Regardless, an unsecured slider packed down with steering lines through keeper rings but not slider grommets is still a problem no matter that the jumper's intent was - up or down.

Still waiting in a vacuum for more information.

c-ya
Gardner

[guest]

Thanks Gardner! I knew Earl from his reputation as a big wall climber in Yosemite long before I got back into base jumping. If anyone wants to climb one of the routes he put up they had better have their stuff together and leave the shakes at the base of the climb. This guy had panache and is remembered as one of the ballsier hardmen of the Valley.

When I decided to get back into base after a 17 year lay-off he was one of the people I consulted and am greatful for the opportunity.

ps: Was at the start of I-16 not too long ago and had a look at one really asthetic site. Will get in touch next trip back east

[guest]

Basically it's like this, If someone is careless about one thing they do, then it is usually apparent other places in there life. If someone is a careless base jumper then it is quite possible that they are a careless pilot, or a careless skydiver, or a careless driver.

Instead of being sure I'm bagging on a single person, maybe we should look deeper, I am bagging without remorse on those that choose to be careless. I am most definitly bagging on those who choose to rig there equipment incorrectly, even if the claim is "I didnt know any better".
If someone dies because they had a line over, and they were not jumping with a tail gate, whos fault is that? I am not responsible for them, I AM AVAILABLE TO THEM. Know the difference. be one with the difference. feeeeel the difference.

dont hide behind the "he
is dead why are you bagging on him thats why i am missing the point argument". We are all responsible for our own actions, lets get over ourselves, and make sure we are available to give the imformation when it is sought. Earl dosnt care what I say about him, why should anyone else.

I am a pilot, and I would hold myself fully responsible if the aircraft I was sitting in collided with rising terrain.
If you dont know exactly what that means than you prolly shouldnt respond.
Earl is responsible for not paying attention to what a less expeirienced pilot was doing, and thus getting killed. If I rig my steering lines in the keepers slider down and have a line over then I am responsible.
lets keep to the point.
The point is We are all personally responsible for educating ourselves with the best most advanced knowledge available. If I choose as an individual to reinvent the wheel then that is my choice and your choice.

I dont see the need.

Love you all, and I want us to all live for ever.
believe it, it is my bottom line.
Brian

P.S. did you say something Robin? Never mind I dont care anyways.

[guest]

Well, let me just tell you my own little story about Earl 1000 jump God jumped off antennas in Georgia before I was born Redfern.

My third or fourth trip to Moab (post discovery of Mineral Canyon by the masses) was great until I encountered good old Earl. It was almost sunset and I still had one rig packed, along with my friends, Bruce Kramer and Mick Knutson. So Earl said he had this sweet little jump about 400 feet that was a 2 minute drive and a 5 minute walk away, and he would send someone to pick us up at the bottom. So, trusting his monstrous experience in the area, I accompanied him happy as a hindu cow. Also, speaking of pups (that's what you call people, isn't it,Robin?), four little 18 year olds trailed happily along too.

So after a 5 minute drive, we started walking.... and walking... and walking.... and it got darker and darker and darker..... But (as Earl and Matt looked around for who knows what) I'm sure this jump was "just around the next corner." After about an hour, we came along a cliff edge.

"Well, this isn't it, but it'll do. We'll call it Earl's Pearl!" Earl cried. So he threw on his rig as Mick, Bruce and I looked over the edge. Off he went, followed by his pups who jumped off as they were tightening their leg straps. It was dark and we had no idea how to get back. Mick, Bruce and I checked each others' gear and all went handheld. So, we survived, obviously, and then it was time to walk out in the dark after we waited for Earl and his pups to celebrate a little. So walking out in the dark, I turned to Earl and asked where our ride was. He said it was Matt (the guy at the top videoing us) and that he had to walk back to the car (an hour) and then drive down and find us. So, we walked and we walked and then we passed this sign. I turned around to read it and it said "Welome to Canyonlands National Park." I don't know about you, but I like to chose my illegal jumps, especially when one of my friends and fellow jumpers is on federal probation for National Park jumping.

Yes, we made the mistake of listening and following, but 1000 jumps on skydiving gear without a tailgate without an injury doesn't make you smart - it just means you've gotten lucky. I thought he was an idiot, but I guess I was the idiot that night for believing he was anything other than an idiot.

I await your violent flaming......

Lisa
(NUMBER 12 IN THE WORLD!!!!!! ranked by the fabulous IPBC)

[guest]

You won't get any from me, my friend. Sounds like you had a genuine Earl adventure. His climbing friends recount many of them too.

That doesn't mean Brian isn't way out of line; it just means Earl was off the beaten path sometimes.

And lineovers don't usually happen because of bad luck. They happen because of bad body position. Thus the fact that Earl made all those base jumps without a tailgate is not evidence of his bad judgment but a testament to his SKILL.

Congratulations on your IPBC ranking. It is an accomplishment of which to be proud.

Love,

Robin

[guest]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-01 AT 02:51 AM (PST)[p]Um, Lisa?

You just posted (in a public forum) a description of an illegal jump which includes the names of at least three currently active jumpers, as well as the site of the illegal jump. One of these jumpers may still be on probation for another illegal jump. If this is the case, this posting could be used as evidence of probation violation in court.

Could you please edit out the names/locations, or just have Mick dump the whole post (if it can't be edited since it was posted by a "guest" user)?

Thanks,

--Tom Aiello
tbaiello@ucdavis.edu

[guest]

How much skill does it take to crash a plane into a rock that is not moving one little bit?
"Lineovers are caused by bad body position".
A nugget, or bollocks.......?

[Base401]

Dear Gardner,

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink".
Well I didnt think I would have to explain this, but ok just for you.

What I mean is this, the new technology is there, wether or not you agree with it means nothing.
Tailgates make my sport safer, as do base specific canopies, velcro rigs, and all the other supposedly new ideas. When a jumper properly uses a tailgate it eliminates line over malfunctions. I do not beleive a single case of a line over with a tail gate has been documented.
Anyone who has been around for awhile has seen these things. Anyone who is not looking at the world from the interior of there own butt-hole can see the benefits to the new stuff.
I do not personally know anyone who jumps without the tailgate, oh except maybe u. what ever cranks your clock.
Things dont just happen, People develop these innovations through injury and death. Dont discredit those that have contributed with life and limb by saying these advances are not good.
It's people that insist on not using tailgates, new canopies, new gear, etc, that continue to get hurt. Do not misinterpret, I do believe we can all get hurt or killed. I am no exception.
I call what I do "hedgeing my bet" I do believe in being smart, I will take every possible advance so I might go bigger, deeper, and faster and still get away with it. People who insist on standing on crumbling obsolete outdated technology, shaking there fist at the new advances and screaming at the top of there lungs "It's worked for 20 years it'll work for me" are, in my book, idiots. Like seatbelts and helmets, argue all u want, it dosn't change the facts.

Earl does not need you to defend him. His life and death speak for him. Not me, not you.

Ill try this again, just for you.
Carelessness in one aspect of my life, often denotes carelessness in other parts of my life as well. I see this same trait in others on occasion. That is what I said.
As for the other stuff you said, I dont think u read my post closely enuff. I dont remember correlating anything tailgate, flying, dieing, skydiveing canopy anything.
Sooooo whatever.
Love u all,

Brian

P.s. I know where you can get a free tailgate if u decide to catch up.

[Base401]

I am offering a free base course.

It is designed to correct problems like line overs due to body position, Pilot chute hesitation due to untied shoes, and hard pulls from upaid credit card dept.
anyone interested should remove there tailgate, grab the nearest zp eliptical and jump off the roof.
Brian

[guest]

rolling
on
the
floor
laughing
my
fuzzy
ass
off

[base311]

Brian,

I did understand what you were trying to say in your first post, but I was responding to the WAY you tried to make your point and I'll admit that my reaction and subsequent post was somewhat knee-jerk. I agree that the tailgate is a neat (and damn-simple) piece of work and I choose to use one on every slider down jump.

I am in agreement with what you have said here; you did a much better job this time than last. :) But as for defending Earl, I'll defend whoever I choose: dead or alive.

Agreed that if I ever find myself in the right seat of an aircraft where I am faced with rising terrain then it'll be "my plane".

Peace,
Gardner

P.S. Oh and Lisa? I heard about that epic journey. Muwah aha hahahahahahahaha. I have a few of those epic what-the-hell-am-I-doing-here-with-this-guy stories myself. One thing is for sure - I wouldn't have had some of my now-treasured experiences if it hadn't been for Earl.

[guest]

Yes, Mike, I agree, the original posting lost its original momentum.
I think the main point of this thread was NOT if a very experienced jumper uses or not a particular equipment.
I think the main point of this thread is: if improvements in technology and consolidated rigging practices become available to the mass, such improvements and consolidated rigging practices must at least be brought to the knowledge of all the jumpers in the world, then they can freely decide if to use them or not, and after having thought about them quite a while.
The consolidated practice of a very experienced jumper must not be taken as "the rule", because he himself jumps his rig, and so his rigging practice/equipment cannot be transferred by default to any jumper.
For example.
My "inspirator/instructor" is a very experienced jumper and does NOT use the tailgate for his no slider jumps (he had only 1 lineover early in his career) because, he explains, the way he packs and the way he jumps makes it nearly impossible for him to have a lineover. But this is not transferrable!!! I jump always WITH the tailgate in my no slider jumps, and he is happy with that.
So my contribution to the thread is the following.
It is a MUST for every BASE jumper in the world to know the common rigging pratice of BASE equipment and furthermore all the new pieces of equipment that become available from time to time.
It is MUST for every BASE jumper in the world to understand the priciples and the reasons of the riggings and of new equipment.
It is a faculty of every BASE jumper NOT to use any of the above rigging/equipment after a sound good evaluation and for a very good reason! Not because he does not know about the new stuff and/or the usual consolidated rigging practice!
Blue skies to you all
Andrea

[guest]

No, BR came out with the tailgate - (registered trademark thingy).

[guest]

Hey anonymous mate!
I do not know if you are joking or not. But if you are not joking, I confirm that I used the words "consolidated rigging" in lowcase letters (and so NOT referring to the famous BASE gear manufacturer) and with these two words I meant something like "very common practice of rigging", generally speaking, "very common habit of assembling/setting up BASE rigs", and in any case, I was speaking about any piece of equipment that becomes available to the jumpers.
Probably I used wrongly the word "consolidated".
Sorry, I am a foreigner and so I do not speak English language 100% as you would. But, please, forgive me for this.
Blue Skies
Andrea