WLO hang up

[BASE_689]

I would like to share my last night experience.
Jumping our local A, 115 m - 377 ft, Prism+Fox Multi-Vtec-Covers with Vertigo's WLO risers+toggles (=the "normal" part being: "stiff part" of toggle = straight steel pin + safety snap), no slider, 1.5 s delay, 3 wraps on tail gate, nice on heading opening in one of the darkest night I have ever jumped: as soon as I go for the toggle, I experience a left toggle hang up.
Suddenly I didn't realized, being in total darkness, that I had a (left) toggle hang up, I simply had my hands into toggles at (slightly above) shoulders's height, and I noticed my canopy was flying sort of strange. In fact, my right toggle+control line was normal, my left hand into toggle was holding toggle still connected to risers "down there": I was in a sort of controlled "side stall".
As soon as I realized I was keeping down the left risers, I lifted up my left hand and yanked down a couple of times: at the second/third stroke, the toggle (=snap) freed itself and I was free to fly "normally".
I was wondering if any of you has ever experienced such a "straight pin+snap toggle" hang up.
Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com

[BW]

I have had the line mod (white loop used for stowing brakes slider down) hangup in the brake setting on a couple of jumps off of our leagal span. It cleared after a few tugs like you said...is this what you are referring to or are you saying the toggle tip, or pin, was lodged in the cover???
Sorry I don't quite understand,
BW

[Ghosty]

Hey,

Why are you using wlo toggles slider down??i don't see the point...

[clint]

Why are you using wlo toggles slider down??i don't see the point!
Right! Vertigo have been telling people to have 2 sets of toggles.
WLO's should only be for slider up jumps. I was affraid of having the snap hang up on me but after doing several jumps with them I have yet to have a problem. Working for Vertigo last year and starting work tomorrow for them I have learned also that the pins may bend if you use them on slider down jumps. The impact on opening is much more there. So if your doing no slider jumps, use regular toggles.
Clint

[BASE_689]

>is this what you are referring to or are you saying the
>toggle tip, or pin, was lodged in the cover???
>Sorry I don't quite understand
I clarify explaining how WLO is made (in this moment I neglect mentioning how the device for releasing the line is made because it is not involved in the hang up).
A WLO toggle is identical in principle to a normal toggle, with the difference that the stiff part (that goes through the white (black in case of WLO) loop to set the brake) is not made of cloth but it is made by a straight steel pin, plus there a snap closure just under the metallic ring, male part on the riser (immediately below ring) and female part on toggle, just below straight steel pin. Below ring+snap on riser there is velcro (hook velcro on riser, pile velcro on toggle), just like in a standard riser/toggle system.
To set the brake on a WLO riser/toggle system you do as follows.
You pass the black loop (on the riser) through the (deep) brake setting on control line, then pass the black loop through the metallic ring on the riser, then you pass the tip of toggle (straight metallic pin) through this black loop and then you stick the tip of the toggle into its keeper (cover, if you prefer to call it that way) on the riser.
Plus an additional step that you don't do if you deal with standard toggle: for finally setting the WLO toggles, you press the female snap (on WLO toggle) into the male part (on riser), so "fixing" the snap fastener. And finally you carefully match the velcro all the way down the toggle.
The guilty for my hang up was for sure the snap (or combination of snap+velcro): when I had my left risers kept "down" by WLO toggles still in position, the snap was still in its closed position, and of course the tip of WLO toggle was still into its keeper on the riser. After second/third yank down, it finally released.
Hope now it is clearer.

By Ghosty:
> Why are you using WLO toggles slider down? I don’t see the point…
Very good question indeed that deserves a very good answer ;-)
Let's state in advance that WLO toggles cannot be used on any other riser except on risers with snaps by Vertigo, so if you own a non-Vertigo rig and want to have WLO toggles, you must buy and install Vertigo's complete system risers+WLO toggles.
Yes, there is no NEED to use WLO toggle in slider off jumps.
But, granted that once in a while I go and jump both our subterminal and our terminal wall, once I have assembled Vertigo risers on my Prism and WLO toggles on my Fox control lines, I do NOT switch going from slider up having WLO riser/toggle to slider off having BR standard riser/(big grab) toggle.
Instead, now I keep installed all the time Vertigo (WLO proprietary) risers on my Prism and WLO toggles on my Fox control lines.
Up to last week (it is about 30 jumps so far) the above combination never gave me a single problem.
Until last night... :+


Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com

[BASE_689]

>Right! Vertigo have been telling people to have 2 sets of
>toggles.
I am discovering NOW of this suggestion to have 2 different sets of risers/toggles..... ;(

>WLO's should only be for slider up jumps.
See above ;(
On the opposite, just after WLO release on market, I did read a post by Jimmy, which post clarfified that the device of releasing control line on WLO should have be used ONLY when having a line over in the slider up configuration. "...in case of line over in a no slider configuration, do not bother to release the line with WLO device: instead, just throw away (and up) the toggles and fly and flare using risers, it still is the fastet way to get rid of line over...", words (more or less) by Jimmy, words implying that jumping WLO riser/toggle was OK both slider up and slider off.

I am discovering NOW that (apparently) WLO riser/toggles are NOT adviced to be jumped when going slider off (if so, why the manufacture on front risers of velcroed ribbons to tie slider down on front risers, then?!?!?!?!?).... ;(

> I have learned also that the pins will bend if you use
> them on slider down jumps
Again, I am discovering this NOW too... ;(

>So if your doing no slider jumps, use regular toggles.
Again, I am discovering ... (see above)... ;(
Again, if the above holds true, why the manufacture on front risers of velcroed ribbons to tie slider down on front risers, then?!?!?!?!?.... ;(

If such an advice is to be taken litterally, then to switch from slider up with WLO risers/toggles to slider off with BR standard risers/(big grab) toggles, meaning the removal of slider AND the change of risers (meaning all the lines out of ss links on Vertigo risers and then all lines into the ss links on BR standard risers), would start to cause a slight pain in the àss :+


Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com

[sean]

Speak to Rob and Kathy at Morpheus...they are doing big grab toggles with a line release function that dont have a press stud or "snap" they just use the standard bungee and velcro toggle keeper...not used them in anger yet but on the drill jumps they work just fine...

hope this helps...

[BASE_689]

Thanks for the info, Sean!!!! I just shot an e-mail to Morpheus asking for informations about their big-grab-line-release toggle. I will post here their answers.

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com

[Jimmy P]

The advantage of the WLO toggles are that by one motion, you clear both the brake line from the toggle and you clear the same pin from the brake setting, thus clearing the line over. If the system that you are using only clears the brake line from the toggle, then you still have a line over until you unstow the toggle itself. The long pin used to attach the line to the toggle and set the brake allows us to do this. Initially, we didn't have a problem using the WLO's for both slider up and slider down jumps. Since that time we have had a couple of cases where the pin was slightly bent doing slider down jumps. You can tap the pin back to straight using a rawhide mallet. We now recommend using the normal Syko toggles for slider down jumps. Marta and I still use the WLO toggles for both slider up and slider down jumps and neither of us have bent pins. It is very important to pre-tension the brake settings against the pins when packing to avoid shock loading, as you should be doing every jump anyway, no matter what system you are using.
Regarding the hang up, we use Dacron loops to go through the brake setting. When unstowing your toggles, you should always pull the toggles down far enough to pull the setting off of the loop, this is usually just past your chest. It sounds like what happened is that one loop hung up. Let me know if this makes sense.
Thanks,
Jimmy P

[BASE_689]

>When unstowing your toggles, you should always
>pull the toggles down far enough to pull the setting off of
>the loop, this is usually just past your chest. It sounds
>like what happened is that one loop hung up.
No. What I was pulling down was "toggle+riser" with toggle still attached to riser via snap fastener.
I remember that after noticing something strange in the flight of my Fox (left toggle "up" (=slightly above shoulder height) and right toggle down but I wasn't moving...), I looked at my left toggle (at this stage, I was able to see thanks the small speleo light attached to my helmet), and I saw toggle still attached to riser via snap: I was pulling down the riser through toggle as a "toggle+riser" whole.
I CLEARLY remember some riser "slack" (below toggle) due to pulling down of top part of riser.
At second/third yank down, the snap cleared and so I was capable of releasing the toggle and fly away normally.
Stay Safe Out There
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com

[Jimmy P]

Sounds like you definitely know what happened. I would have been skeptical had you not had a light on your helmet, that is too cool. The only thing that I can think of is that you were grabbing the absolute bottom of the toggle and trying to shear the velcro straight down as opposed to grabbing the webbing of the toggle and peeling the snap and webbing. Just make sure that neither side of the snap is loose(can be spun). I would lay the riser down on the carpet and grab the toggle normally while holding the link with your other hand, see if you can duplicate the scenario. Apart from this we have had no similar reports. Several years ago with the old design of the Syko toggle, you had to pull upwards and some people didn't like this, we changed the configuration of the snap and grommet at that time and solved that problem.
Jimmy P

[BASE_689]

>The only thing that I can think of is that you were
>grabbing the absolute bottom of the toggle and trying to shear
>the velcro straight down as opposed to grabbing the webbing of
>the toggle and peeling the snap and webbing.
Now this is definitely a possibility. Usually, I pull the toggle down with a "certain" angle, but to be honest I cannot swear if I pulled down with a "certain" angle > 0 or I did pull down just straight down "shearing the velcro straight down".
I am going to give a try on the carpet, to see what happens.
I will let you know.
Signed: one of your (best ;) ) students from South Europe (aka NAKED #14) :+


Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com

[BASE_689]

>I am going to give a try on the carpet, to see what happens.
I tried yesterday to do the test of clearing toggle on the carpet.
I am afraid it is jolly difficult to reproduce the same situation I have in the air.
Because if with one hand a block on the ground the tip of riser (=connector link) firmly, in any direction, even "shear down", I pull the WLO toggle with the other hand, I easily get the WLO toggle cleared from the snap. While doing so (I have only two hands), what is different from the "on air" situation is that on the carpet the control line is free, while in the "on air" situation the control line is under tension, more or less just like the riser is.
While I could use my foot to block the tip of riser onto ground, with one hand I could apply some tension on control line and then (finally!) use my other hand to pull down the WLO toggle, it would remain "free" the amount of tension I should apply to control line, so would be free the "direction" of application of tension...
For the moment, I re-assembled my old normal risers with "normal" big grab toggle for slider off jumps, waiting to use again my WLO risers/toggles in case of my next slider up jumps...

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 :D
e-mail: base_689@yahoo.com