No more cover up

[guest]

I hate to do this, but maybe we can learn something from the recent fatality at the Perrine. No one else is willing to talk about the technical details and I don't think it should be covered up.

We may never know the answer as to why this happened, but it would be a real shame if something like this were to happen again because we didn't put everybody's minds together to draw our own conclusions.

The pilot chute was manufactured by "Bombproof Rigging" in Eloy.

Does anyone out there own one of their pilot chutes? We should start by taking a look at their pilot chute design and construction methods.

It's important to note that the design and construction of the pilot chute may have had nothing to do with the malfunction, but it's a logical place to look in the beginning stages of an investigation.

[guest]

That's funny. With all the talk about this subject, and all the supposed interest, no one seems to have any comments so far.

Folks, the post above about the pilot chute is in fact what he was jumping -- no BS in this statement.

Does anyone have any comments?

[guest]

The PC manufacturer is only part of the puzzle, and the rest of the information is being held close to the chest. It hasn't even been released whether he was Handheld or stowed or what bridle length he was using, or if the PC was found to be damaged in any way or contain manufacturing anomalies. I don't know how the name of the manufacturer alone has any bearing on the root cause of the accident.

[d-dog]

Comments? Yeah. Brian was wearing Teva sandals when he jumped on Saturday night. Does anyone else get the feel that those sandals were probably a key factor in the incident. I sure do! I bet the Teva mafia is covering up for the sandals because, dude, everyone knows about those Teva guys being all weird and stuff.

Let's start a witch-hunt wherein we all assume that his sandals were manufactured improperly. Sure, we don't have ANY information to suggest that but hey it will be fun. And if we work hard enough at spreading false information, perhaps we'll even be able to instigate a lawsuit against Teva. Boy, that's be, you know, cool! Besides, maybe we'll distract people from the real causes of the accident and in doing so cause more fatalities in the process. Right on!

How about you read the other threads on this subject, where the data available and able to be posted (for legal reasons) has been posted for all the world to see? And, the neat thing is, in those threads the opinions and facts posted actually come from people who have a clue about the accident - people, in fact, who were THERE and saw what happened with their own eyes.

Brian did not die because his pilot chute was manufactured improperly. Sorry to burst your bubble and piss on your witchunt, but sometimes facts have a funny way of doing that to idiotic, hair-brained "theories," Maxwell.

The reason nobody else has comments about your post is that it is dumb.

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

[guest]

d-dog,

Your posts are usually well thought out and they make good points. I'm disappointed after reading your response above.

I was not stating that the PC manufacturer was at fault. I was suggesting that we should look at their design and construction to see if there was anything that may have contributed. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THERE IS. BUT WE SHOULD LOOK INTO THE POSSIBILITY.

Let me ask you this question: What if there was something inherently dangerous in a particular PC design? Would you not want to discover it? Maybe it's something we as a community have never discovered.

The Portland crew is very experienced, but they are not the end-all, know-everything-there-is-to-know people. (sorry to bust your bubble) Your treating them like they are the last and final word on any subject. Others may know things that they don't and may discover things they never considered.

Someone died because of a total malfunction that was caused by a pilot chute not working properly. In my mind, this was likely caused by:

1) poor PC packing techniques if he went stowed

2) something inherently wrong with the particular pilot-chute (design, construction, or damage)

3) inadequate air-flow to inflate the pilot-chute (although witness reports state that the pilot-chute seemed to be getting air around it and the bridle didn't seem to be part of the equation)

4) maybe black death! (the least possibility)

I'd like to learn why this happened and for that reason, I don't think my post was dumb at all.

[guest]

Why is he dumb for wanting to know why this person died?

[guest]

He died because he got in over his head.
There is no other reason............Ever.
Personal responsibility is the first and final reason for all fatality's.

Pilot chute suitablity-my responsibility
delay suitibility -my responsibility
manufacturing anomalies-gee I guess that should have been my responsibility.
pilot chute packing technique- I guess thats mine.

so I suppose knowing nothing more than anyone else about this fatality I can safely say:
this individual took to long a delay for the conditions.
The conditions consisting of:
equipment configuration.
experience.
site conditions.

Brian

[guest]

The conditions consisting of:
equipment configuration.
experience.
site conditions.

Site conditions that included seven people who didn't give a ##### if a newbie with 20 base jumps went stowed with a rubber band around his pilot chute as long as he didn't hurt _them_.

that's the real reason

wake up and smell the diapers

[guest]

I don't buy this "for legal reasons we can't disclose that" Bullsh!t. Incident reports get published in Parachutist every month, and every one names names. The facts are presented and conclusions are drawn, and the S&TA's and magazine publishers don't worry about getting sued for it. If you're so scared of the fuckin' lawyers, maybe you shouldn't be manufacturing BASE gear or making BASE jumps with anyone who might turn around and sue you.

Another instance where our letigious society is hindering progress and the spread of knowledge.

If another person goes in due to the same malfunction, all those that withheld this information will definately have liability attached, and not just the legal kind, the moral kind, too.

[d-dog]

Well, the title of your post ("no more cover up") certainly doesn't set a cordial tone, does it?

As "we" consider variables in this incident, I'm telling you one thing: PC design wasn't a variable at fault. That is the conclusion of two of the most experienced gear manufacturers on the planet (neither of who manufactured this gear) and jumpers with a combined, ooooh, 3000+ jumps who reviewed the data and personally inspected the PC after the incident (myself included, though I am the low-timer of the bunch). The PC design was standard, correct, typical, normal, etc. No damage, no visible flaws. Not the causal factor.

I encourage and applaud you for making a decision that YOU will personally think through this incident instead of waiting for someone to "tell you" what happened. Sorry if I was unduly crabby, but gosh I guess my bubble just got burst and - OW! - it hurt. I thought we were the center of the universe. . . is that not so? What would Copernicus think?

Another publicly-reported data point is that Brian did go stowed. Finally, I am 99.9% confident that there were no bridle-related issues either and I think others are in agreement on this.

Again, I encourage you to read carefully my post on this subject under one of the myriad other threads addressing Brian's fatality. Until the legal clouds clear (for folks OTHER THAN the PDX crew, for the record), I expect that's going to be the most data-rich synopsis posted here by the folks that I know who have done a comprehensive review of the incident.

Peace,

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

[guest]

Why did Brian have a Rubber Band around his Pilot Chute or should I say, Why would those expirenced jumpers Jumpers on that load let Brian Jump with a Rubber Band around his Pilot Chute ?

[guest]

Robin (99% sure it’s you) or any other holier-than-thou SOB out there: so are you saying that you always check everyone’s gear that you jump with? Oh wait, you don’t jump. Well then, when you used to jump, you mean to tell me that you checked everyone’s gear condition and configuration on every single jump? Did you personally inspect the packing of each and every person on the famous Millenium jump? Did each person have the adequate experience to jump that object (including you)? I think not. To say that the rest of the people on the jump didn’t give a crap about Brian or his gear just because they didn’t inspect his packing is absurd. By all accounts he was a solid jumper who was jumping the same gear that he had been jumping the entire time, doing the same delay every time with no problems. He may have made a terrible packing error that caused his death. But don’t blame the others for this.

Do you have absolutely no understanding of personal responsibility? I guess you wouldn’t understand this because you’re always out to blame everyone else for your own flailings.

Just remember that when you point a finger at someone, there are always three pointing back at you.
>(

[d-dog]

I'm not asking you to buy a goddamned thing, for the record. I wouldn't sell you anything anyway.

Funny how these pissy anonymous posts always come in waves. . . almost as if ONE PERSON was posting all of them. Strange. . . very strange. . .

Magazine publishers? Are you really that clueless about our legal system that you can't connect the dots here and see what we are ALL trying to prevent from this incident? Can you take a minute and do some THINKING and maybe you'll figure it out?

Man, if ignorance is bliss then our anonymous, clueless posters here must be ridin' a high that makes MDMA look like crushed glass.

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

[guest]

Doug,
I took more than a minute to think and I still can't figure it out as I was not at the Perrine bridge when Brian Stout Towed his Pilot Chute in to Impact the Snake River. Why are you and the others on that load withholding information that may be Vital to others? We need this Information so others will not make the same mistake again. Thank You, Lisa Johnson

[guest]

>Why are you
>and the others on that load withholding
>information that may be Vital to others?

Simply because the information isn't vital to others. Nothing new discovered to the fact that if you use packing tools to help you pack then you need to account for them when you are done.

People have made this mistake before and will make this mistake in the future even though the information is well known and obvious.

[guest]

>>Why are you
>>and the others on that load withholding
>>information that may be Vital to others?
>
>Nothing new discovered to the fact that
>if you use packing tools to help you pack then
>you need to account for them when you are done.
YOU ARE RIGHT TO ASK FOR THE INFO FROM THIS INVESTIGATION. IT IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED THAN A RUBBERBAND. KEEP ASKING.

[guest]

Doug,
I showed your Posting to my Parents, They are all for my Base Jumping, except for your withholding Information. Thinking if I Got Killed,You are in Trouble. Lisa Johnson

[d-dog]

Why don't you post your email address here, "Lisa," and we can discuss this in greater detail via that communications channel.

Seems fair?

D-d0g
ddog@wrinko.com
www.wrinko.com

ps: your "parents" must not know much about our legal system, "Lisa." What responsibility do I have legally to you, someone I've never met, instructed, advised, or otherwise interacted with? None. Our legal system, for your edification, is based on English common law principles of "tort" in the case of civil liability. I could do you no wrong (i.e. "tort") if I have no relationship with you in any manner.

I also wonder if your concept of personal responsiblity, "Lisa," isn't a bit too unstable for you to even pretend to be a BASE jumper. Perhaps you should stay home and be bitter instead of jumping - it is safer.

[guest]

I guess I'm confused. I thought Brian was responsible for his own fate. What legal ramifications? Why hold back? Shouldn't everyone else be able to decide for themselves if the information in that report has any importance to them, or are they not intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions. I was under the impression we lived in a free society, freedom of speech, etc. Isn't that part of what base jumping is.