What's cute and blonde and hangs on walls in MOAB?

[guest]

"The Gash" has been _renamed_: it is now to be known as "Mari's Gash".

She earned the distinction of having one of the best jumps in MOAB named after her by hanging half-way up on the face for over eight hours while a major technical rescue ensued. Not a scratch!!! We're glad you're not hurt, Mari. Please learn how to deal with those 180s. I have your container and I'll retrieve your canopy from the wall this weekend.

BACK TO THE PARTY!!!!!!!
-the moab party crew

[imported_mknutson]

Please e-mail me all the details.
Who is she?
What experience?
What happend?

[guest]

Hi, Mick, my name is Mari, and I'm the one who kissed the cliff and enjoyed it so much I decided to hang out for eight more hours and fondle it. (Yeah, right.) Here's the much abbreviated version of the story...if you (or anybody else) have any other questions, you can email me or post them.

It was my fourth jump of the day on Thursday, my 10th BASE jump total (2 BD, the rest off cliffs in Moab), and it was a sunset load. We had jumped this particular cliff on the third jump of the day too. I went first, and had a left 180 on opening that turned extra fast due to a headwind. I don't load my canopy very heavily and I didn't run very hard off the edge, so my immediate riser input did very little to change my situation before I impacted the cliff, pushing off with my legs while still putting in riser inputs. I was almost turned around when I suddenly stopped falling. I was hanging from my end cell that had draped squarely over a large boulder sticking out on a ledge. I was therefore suspended by one riser, crooked in the harness, facing away from the cliff, 150 ft. above the talus, 200 feet below the overhanging edge. This overhanging edge is what caused most of the rescue difficulties--once they could finally get around the ledge down to my level, they were hanging out in space with no way to get in to me. Finally, on the third try, the rescuer was close enough to me to throw me a rope. I then had to pull him to me, hoping my canopy would hold. It did, and once he was able to get a climbing harness on me, we were lifted back up to the top of the cliff.

Medically, I am a walking miracle. People do not have this kind of accident and walk away--much less under their own power--without some serious divine intervention. I broke no bones and have no bruises. Only one tiny scrap on my chin where my opposite riser cut into my neck and face as I hung there. I have a lot of strained muscles...I hung from my right hamstring and left side for 8 hours, and I had to do pullups on my riser in order to breathe, so I feel like somebody took a baseball bat to most of those muscles. I don't have any feeling back in my fingers yet from the cold, but I'm sure that will come back eventually along with the feeling in parts of my left leg.

Earl, although you seem to have renamed the point already, I'd like you to consider renaming it "Angel's Point", in honor of both the divine angels and my human angels that saved me Thursday night. I don't know why they saved me, and maybe I didn't deserve to be saved, but they did. Eerily enough, Karen said that they actually saw one of the cliff's guardian angels...as I was being raised to safety with George (my rescue hero), they noticed that about 20 feet below and to the left of my canopy there was a white discoloration in the rock--in the shape of an angel.

To the Moab party crew--you all are awesome. I'm sorry I didn't get to see you all again before I left, but I hope to run into all of you again soon. Spike, thanks for keeping me company while I waited for help. We never made it for the pizza you promised, eh? Steve, you're a real sweetheart, and I guess you were right about stepping on the little black bacteria--bad karma. http://www.baselogic.com/forum/images/happy.gif Gardner, I was especially sad not to run into you again Friday...I was gonna snag some of your pain pills. http://www.baselogic.com/forum/images/happy.gif I hope your ankle gets better soon.

And to everyone else--Blue Skies, from someone who looked big, black, squirmy death in the face and lived.

[guest]

Hi Mari...I'm the volunteer commander of Grand County Search and Rescue (www.gcsar.org)...or at least was for the past three years until Jan. 1...and one of the 3 or 4 guys near you when you reached the top of the cliff. Your rescue was an exciting way to end my tenure in that position. I'm glad that you are ok...I'd still like to get with you via email or snail mail. You should know that your rescue was the most difficult and challenging that I have ever been involved with. It was a cooperative effort between about ten members of GCSAR and about a half-dozen rangers from the National Park Service...most of whom arrived back in Moab at about 3:30 Friday morning.

If we had been able to pinpoint your location from above more accurately, it might not have taken three attempts to get a rescuer to you. When we arrived, someone with your party kept insisting that if we went down the notch just to the northeast of you, we would be right on top of you. That is where we sent Jeff, the first rescuer...and he was unable to reach you. Due to the soft, unstable rock atop the cliff, it was virtually impossible to get anchors in directly above you...so we used directionals/pulleys/etc. to get the rope where it needed to be. And while we may have been able to get those anchors in, we decided that time was of the essence in reaching you. Setting up additional anchor systems, once we saw that the second attempt to reach you was still too far away, would have taken more time than we felt we had...though we did have additional ropes, gear, etc., on the way.

When we had fed George enough of his 300-foot belay line to throw to you, we had less than 10 feet left in that particular rope. We used well over 2,000 feet of rope in the operation (some of which had to be destroyed afterward) and went through about five re-chargeable batteries on our motorized drills...if we'd have had to drill any more holes, it would have been much slower by hand.

We were continually re-assessing the situation from atop the cliff...running all of the "what-ifs" through our minds. I really didn't want to think about what we'd have had to do if you would have been unable to pull George in to you. It appears the angels were watching over everyone that night...after we got Jeff back to the top, we discovered that one of his ropes was cut almost completely through from rubbing against the rock about 20-30 feet below the rim.

We have been involved in the rescue of three base-jumpers in the past two years. You were the least severely injured of the three. I still marvel at your "luck" in getting caught where you did. Though you picked a location that made access extremely challenging, you somehow picked a rock that was stable enough to hold you for several hours. Though I hope we do not have to be involved in another similar rescue, I must say that the challenging nature of your rescue has improved our capabilities to handle another one like it. Your rescue challenged our resources, abilities, and ingenuity. I'm thankful that everyone was able to walk away from the operation.

[guest]

Judging by the male-female ratio of BASE jumpers, and comparing it to the male-female ratio of BASE injuries, I'd say the two don't even come close.

In other words, is it the lack of aggresiveness in females that causes them to get all busted up so damn much? What would Adam and Jimmy (from "The Man Show") say about this?

*The thinker

[imported_mknutson]

<center><font size="1" color="#ff0000">LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-00 AT 06:50&nbsp;PM (EST)</font></center>

LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-00 AT 06:48 PM (EST)

ANYONE WITH 4 BASE JUMPS GOING TO MOAB IS NOT USING THEIR BRAIN! THIS MEANS YOU MARI! LUCK ONLY GOES SO FAR...

The person taking them there is even more to blame

THE JUMPER: The precedence has led you do these type of jumps with little or no experience and no business being there. There is tons of information, and lots of web site/papers etc. that will tell you the same thing: GET QUALIFIED AND GET MORE EXPERIENCE BEFORE YOU DECIDE TO LIVE WITH PEER PRESSURE TO GO JUMP WITH OTHER THAT ARE MORE QUALIFIED. There are many people with different types of intentions and some may be good. However, this does not mena they actually are thinking of your safety. This sport is very dangerous. Without adaquite knowledge, training and currency, it can quickly become deadly.

INSTRUCTORS: Think of it this way. If you tech someone and they are injured or die because of a mistake in how you taught them, IT IS YOUR FAULT! If you are qualified to teach, then teach qualified jumpers. If you are not qualified, you are arming unqualified jumpers with a false sense of security because they are looking at you as an authority. THIS IS NOT A GAME. THIS IS NOT "i want to teach someone so I can get a bigger ego". This is very serious.

I THINK YOU SHOULD READ SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN OUT FOR ALMOST 6 MONTHS NOW:
http://www.baselogic.com/ibf/license.html

Mari, I am very glad that you are not hurt and think fabric is cheap! Lessons are a gold mine!

That is why everyone must exploit every lesson we run across and share it with as many people we can! Don't assume that someone else already knows! And always assume that someone "MAY" have less knowledge about this sport than you think.

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[guest]

Mick darling,

Your anger is misplaced. If not for the bigoted jackbooted thugs masquerading as Nazi Punk Service superintendents and administrators, you wouldn't have beginners daring death from 400-foot cliffs in Moab.

But those are the only cliffs that are legal and easily accessible, so just what exactly do you THINK is going to happen?

As for your licensing/rating system; I know you put a lot of work and thought into it but it's nothing more than a bad joke at the moment because just where exactly are all these beginners going to get all the intermediate jumps they need to do when basically every intermediate jump in this country is controlled by the Nazi Punks or illegal because it is private property?????

Mari made some mistakes and got one of those million dollar lessons for a dollar twenty-five, but cursing her and her companions simply plays into the hands of the Nazi Punks, my friend.

Moreover, it is not necessarily Mari's lack of BASE experience that got her; for two weeks, we kept hearing about the "party" in Moab, and let me try to be delicate here, but methinks it is never a party when the main attraction is jumping off cliffs.

It was the 1980 "party-on" attitude in Yosemite which gave the Nazi punks the ammo they continue to draw upon for their present pogrom against us -- a pogrom which has consequences like low-timers doing low-timers in the desert canyons of east central Utah.

This same attitude evinced itself at the Moab holiday "party:" Compare the injuries and incidents per-jump of that group with the stats for all the IPBC competitions and you'll see what I mean.

What we do is a _wild thing_ and there is a tendency to get even wilder when surrounded by our wild compadres, and so, to me, attitude management is at _least_ as important as pilot chute management, packing technique and site assessment -- ESPECIALLY when we have a big gaggle of wild ones out there having fun.

Moreoever, attitude management is far and away more important than the number of BASE jumps someone has, which is an utterly arbitrary measure of expertise.

I know people with five times as many BASE jumps as I have who wouldn't even think about doing half the sites logged in my book -- and if they did, they'd be carried out on a stretcher or in a body bag.

Why? Because they're not as good at it as I am, regardless of their jump number, and before you or anyone else obscenely objects to Mari or someone like her doing jumps at Moab, you ought to consider that.

I don't know Mari or her associates, and I don't think you do either. For all we know, she has 4,000 skydives, three medals in national accuracy competition, climbs 5.12 A6 and works high iron when she's not BASE jumping. Beyond that, people with lots more experience than she has have hit and/or snagged on walls in Moab and elsewhere.

And really, Mick, it's really in poor taste to be ragging on Mari & Co. after the crap you took in this forum for taking _your_ girlfriend to France and bringing her home in plaster after _she_ smacked a cliff... how many jumps does _she_ have? How current was _she?_

And speaking of current; you rag on Mari and demand that she and others read your licensing/currency system, after you went to Yosemite and did perhaps the highest-profile live-coverage BASE jump ever done... with one jumper who technically didn't even qualify as a student according to your own standards.

So I say again, Mick: Save it for the Nazi Punks. That is where you should direct your anger, and not toward your brethren and sistren.

Love,


BASE 44

[imported_mknutson]

Michelle had 125 BASE Jumps when she had her accident.

You need more fact about Yosemite before I will even think of returning a comment.

My hostility is because, yes, my partner with 125 jumps was injured. Then a 1 year vet with 300 jumps dies, and a high profile jumper with, I am not sure how many jumps Thor had, and so on.

The system I put together is a great way to show precidence to younger jumpers. There are dozens of places for a student/intermediate jumper to get experience besides Moab. License systems have been in the works for many years by many different people. I just seem to be the first person to openly advertise it at the risk of being flamed by everyone! And have been.

This is a SPORT, not a free-for-all. We have professional manufacturers, instruction programs, destination, tours and competitions. If we want to continue to be professional, we should act professional. Instead of continually having our antics blow up in our face.

Many jumpers get lucky. Mari got lucky. Some jumpers make dozens or even hundreds of jumps and get lucky. But luck is not what we should be relying on.

http://www.baselogic.com/forum/images/angry.gif

[guest]

I know as much about what happened at Yosemite as you do, and I mentioned it to make the following point:

Jan Davis was completely qualified to make that jump -- but _NOT_ according to _your_ proposed licensing requirements.

It';s ridiculous to take a free-spirited activity like BASE jumping and create a bureaucracy to manage it.

What a JOKE.

Climbers are not licensed or rated -- the SITES ARE RATED.

Meticulously, too, I might add. Climbers manage themselves by rating the sites carefully and then trusting to Darwin and the general urge for self-preservation to do the rest.

All this BABBLE about licensing is ridiculous. The variations in personal skill and knowledge cannot be legislated or regulated by an arbitrarily arrived at set of requirements.

You're not an expert BASE jumper unless you make at least 75 a year? Give me a break.

And who is going to know how many you've made. Like Mark Hewitt once said to the Nazi Punks when they tried to use his BASE logbook against him in court: "That's a comic book I use to get laid."

That's the BOTTOM LINE, all you acolytes of ratings and licenses -- and it's ANOTHER reason the "legal program" in Yosem ite failed (as it was _designed_ to do by the Nazi Punks who dreamed it up...): skydivers would bring in their logbooiks and the rangers would go, "Duhhh? How do I know this is legit?"

SO I make 20 jumps a year, and forge the rest: Who is going to know, Mick? You have instructors, but no instructor/examiners, and no conference or national directors to ride herd on them... and what are you gonna do if you _do_) find forged credentials: cordon off the cliffs so the offending jumper can't jump them? Ha ha ha.

All your licensing/rating system is going to do is make an outlaw class among outlaws. None of you guys think past your nose on this one to the _enforcement_ provisions of your detailed little system.

If the Nazi Punk Service can't deal with it, just how _exactly_ are _you_ going to? Try spelling out in that document you have just _exactly_ how the enforcement provisions of all this stuff is going to work.

Seriously, figure THAT out before you even answer this post, and then maybe there will be some common ground.

Absent a _meaningful_ ability to enforce all these lovely new rules you have in mind for us, the whole premise is a joke, except for the totalitarian-oriented among us -- and those who want to create a pipeline where _they_ get to hold the courses and charge the money and control the sport and everything else.

And "sport" it may be, but in effect it's also a political, philosophical and religious movement and until all you rulemaker guys figure that out, you're going to be forever in the dark about what you're seeking to license and the consequences that derive therefrom.

Rating the _sites_, on the other hand, is eminently worthy and there already exists a very workable system already in place -- the one used by climbers.

That's where all of you guys ought to put your energy instead of mimicking USPA and the Nazi Punk Service.

Right now, though, you are aboslutely barking up the wrong tree.... and like the dog who does the same thing, you're working hard and earnestly and single-mindedly, and that's all noble and appreciated by all of us (especially me, as I know how much work it is to try and come up with a document like that), but the botoom line is:

It's still the wrong tree.


Love,


BASE 44

[guest]

Mick,
I must agree with you, Moab is not a beginer site, and Mari was in over her head trying to BASE jump there. Your posting reminds me of Adam's warning to you and Michelle prior to your Europe trip and Michelle's accident. Sometimes, myself included, we let other factors (money/getting laid/Real TV/political status) make decisions for us. Then when something goes wrong; we blame luck. It is time we all realised when you try and turn a mental illness into a sport there will be casualties even when good decision making and common-sense are in effect.
Play safe.
ANDY WEST.

[imported_mknutson]

>It';s ridiculous to take a free-spirited activity
>like BASE jumping and create a
>bureaucracy to manage it.

Did you think of the precedence this would be setting? "Learn more before you jump", "Work harder to continue to learn", "Learn at your own pace, but understand your limits", and "Follow a global precedence, not someone with an ego to teach".

>Climbers are not licensed or rated --
>the SITES ARE RATED.

I am working on a site rating as well. But this will not instill precedence into people. The precedence right now is "Just get a rig and humitt! Little or no experience required. Darwin will have those who are good enough, survive".

>Meticulously, too, I might add. Climbers manage
>themselves by rating the sites carefully
>and then trusting to Darwin and
>the general urge for self-preservation to
>do the rest.

Rock climbing is much easier to regulate because, You enter the difficult area, and are stoped by your ability before you are at the point of no return. When a climber gets to a wall, they look up and see no way to get up, so they go somewhere else.
In BASE Jumping, as soon as you leave the object, you are at the point of no return. That means when you encounter trouble, it is too late to say "I am in over my head". You are already flooded. This is why climbing will never be like jumping!

>The variations in personal skill and
>knowledge cannot be legislated or regulated
>by an arbitrarily arrived at set
>of requirements.

That is exacly why there needs to be a defined system that will address personal progression, yet have a base line to define that progression.

>You're not an expert BASE jumper unless
>you make at least 75 a
>year? Give me a break.

We have people jumping three or more hundred jumps per year. If you set a precedence that you must take jumping seriously and preactice all the time, then people will.

>SO I make 20 jumps a year,
>and forge the rest: Who is
>going to know, Mick? You have
>instructors, but no instructor/examiners, and no
>conference or national directors...

I am not trying to make a USPA. I am trying to raise the bar of dedication to the sport of base jumping by making new people who do not know any better, have a safer outlook.

>and what are
>you gonna do if you _do_)
>find forged credentials: cordon off the
>cliffs so the offending jumper can't
>jump them? Ha ha ha.

A license will set precedence. If the precedence is "I can't jump this object until I get more experience", then a majority of the people will get more experience.

>All your licensing/rating system is going to
>do is make an outlaw class
>among outlaws.

No, this license is going to change a precedence to "be safer" instead of "Go hard and fast and learn later".


>Rating the _sites_, on the other hand,
>is eminently worthy and there already
>exists a very workable system already
>in place -- the one used
>by climbers.

Well if we only do this, here is what might happen. As I mentioned above, Climbers will not be able to further themselves past the point-of-no-return line like base jumpers cross every jump. So the precedence will be;

"I have the knowledge to jump a 5.5 object. But man would I be the coolest dude by going to that 5.13c and just winging it! Hey nobody told me I can't do it. Nobody told me I was not qualified to jump at tht level. Everyone just keeps mentioning this DARWIN thing. Who the heck is DARWIN? Oh well, billy jumped that 5.13c and lived. Hey I am a much better chess player that Billy. Chess is all about thinking. That's what I need in order to make a jump. So what, Billy has more experience than I do...I am jumping it anyway!"

http://www.baselogic.com/forum/images/angry.gif

[guest]

Mick baby,

please define precedence. I have never heard it used in the context in which you are using it.

Maybe you are just misspelling it -

you set a precedent

something takes precedence over something else

from what I can gather, you mean standard all the places you say precedence. Please clarify this, as it currently Does Not Compute.

Secondly, please explain:

Who is going to PAY for this system?
Who is going to POLICE this system?
Who is going to PUNISH in this system?

ANd if you don't yet know that you can start a climb and then find yourself over your head and at a point of no return after you;'re there, then you have a couple of things to learn about climbing.

BUt I say again, sir: Until you can adequately answer the three questions posed two paragraphs above, you are pissing in the wind. whistling Dixie and barking up the wrong tree.

Love,

BASE44

[guest]

This is in response to the posting from Base44. Robin, it's a shame that people like you feel the need to use an incident like this as an excuse to launch yet another mis-directed diatribe against the National Park Service.

There are plenty of less difficult jump sites in the Moab area...the NPS does not have every single one of them locked up. Your assertion that they do is pure uneducated bullshit and inflammatory tripe. There are countless miles of 500-foot cliffs, much of it easily accessible, which lie outside of any park boundaries. The "Nazi Punks, as you call them, are not the ones who forced Mari to jump where she did. That blame lies with her and with those in the so-called Moab Party Crew.

It was some of those "Nazi Punks" who helped save Mari's life. I have absolutely no doubt that had it not been for those skilled and selfless NPS Rangers and the members of Grand County Search and Rescue, Mari would not just have looked "big, black squirmy death" in the face...she'd be jumping with that "big, black squirmy" dude now.

I've read in the BASEboard that jumpers are always prepared for self-rescue...so their accidents will not put additional strain on local rescue groups. The "Moab Party Crew" chose to jump a nearly 500-foot cliff with less than 200 feet of rope, "a few carabiners," and, obviously, less than adequate knowledge of how to deal with complications.

Luckily, there happened to be a group of volunteers, and yes, NPS rangers, who had the expertise and the equipment necessary to deal with the situation. They didn't think twice about putting their lives (or New Year's Eve plans) in jeopardy to save someone's life.

Yet I have seen no acknowledgement of their efforts in this forum from any of you. Your tunnel-vision directs you to point the finger of blame (in the wrong direction) rather than try to understand how incidents such as this might have an effect on NPS and other governmental agency policies. If I had a jumpable cliff on my property, and you came to me with your all-too-apparent attitude, I'd lock the damn gate too.

But you should also be aware that if you ever do jump a cliff in the Moab area, there will be some volunteer rescuers, and some very skilled NPS rangers, who will do their best to see to it that you live through the experience...whatever it might be. Yes, we even rescue $%#holes.

[imported_mknutson]

Students get an impression from other jumpers and instructors. Is this precedence or a precedent? Everyone in the community has been setting a precedent by the views that you keep bringing up.

Who is going to PAY for this system? The price is far higher now than what it would cost if we had such a system. How much was rescuing Mari? What about the cost of rig damage? Loss of work? Hospital costs for an injury?


Who is going to POLICE this system? This system can change the mindset of active jumpers and new jumpers alike. This would make a truely "Self-regulating" sport. How can you self regulate if there are no regulations at all? We should have instilled reality and knowledge of the entire sport into students and low timers so that they would have an overwhelming instinct to self regulate.


Who is going to PUNISH in this system? When that person ignores the standards taught to him/her, the punishment is self inflicted. You hurt or injur yourself because you ignored what the community decided was minimum knowledge to stay safe. You bypass that, you are on your own. Just like the frre-form world you are talking about.

[imported_mknutson]

I, as well as many or maybe even most people have nothing against the S&R. In fact, it is situations like this that you guys shine. However, as with any hero, you typically end up in the shadows.

I for one have not taken any time to thank you for your efforts as I am focused on the problem.

As with the problem with the NPS, that lies with the law makers of the parks. Not the workers doing their job, and definately not the S&R.

I would love to have more dialog, and maybe even some tips and tricks for the upcoming Moab event.

I think that communications is good!
http://www.baselogic.com/forum/images/happy.gif

[guest]

Thanks for your reply...I look forward to meeting you when you come to Moab. Please don't misunderstand my message. We are not in the rescue biz because we expect to be patted on the back. But we also do not expect to be kicked in the groin. Some of us might even be in it because it sometimes provides thrills similar to your sport. The next time any of your cohorts contact an NPS ranger, they would be well-served to remember that their fight is with the policy-makers, not with the rangers. As you said, communication is good. I'll leave you guys alone in your forum now. Cheers.

[guest]

That the Nazi Punk Service continues to harass, prosecute and actively discriminate against wilderness parachutists.

Mis-directed? Give me a break. For 20 YEARS, your so-called superiors have pursued a policy first put in place by a sexual pervert and continued to this day as unspoken national policy. (I just told Mick to direct his anger there instead of at Mari.)

Those cowards you worked for don't even have the courage to put their discriminatory, bigoted policy in writing. It's all a wink and a nod and "up to the discretion of the individual superintendent" but guess what happens to any super who DID issue a permit... right, Siberia for him/her, wherever that might be in the Nazi Punk system.

As for "people like (me)," good sir, we are the kind of people who throughout this country's history have stood up and spoken out against tyranny and discrimination in all of its forms. And me, I served my country as a paratrooper and I sat on tarmacs, geared up, loaded up and ready to go to war, and there is nothing that pisses me off more than Nazi Punk bureaucrats who use the freedom _I_ helped preserve for them to use their positions to restrict mine.

"An incident like this" is not an excuse to revisit your so-called superiors' corrupt practices and policies; it is a _reminder_ of what they CONTINUE TO DO -- and without any rational basis in fact.

>There are plenty of less difficult jump
>sites in the Moab area...the NPS
>does not have every single one
>of them locked up. Your assertion
>that they do is pure uneducated
>bullshit and inflammatory tripe.

And you, sir, use a little polemical tripe yourself to mis-state what I said... You see, if you knew what Mick was talking about, you would know that no 500-foot cliff is considered to be a novice site.... it's the big walls in Yosemite and Zion and the Black Canyon, among others -- all areas controlled by your Nazi Punk "superiors," that make the best and safest sites for low-timers. You see, sir, while you may be a good SAR guy, you know nothing about the BASE jumping licensing debate around which this discussion centers and so you oughta butt out of this part until you get a clue.

> The "Nazi Punks, as you
>call them, are not the ones
>who forced Mari to jump where
>she did.

No, and they didn't chase Frank Gambalie III into the river either, did they? See, that's where you are _also_ clueless: Guess where the party crew would have been jumping if your corrupt so-called superiors hadn't "locked up" (your words) OUR parks?

>It was some of those "Nazi Punks"
>who helped save Mari's life.

Great. Thank you very much. But correct me if I'm wrong -- you get paid with MY taxes (and Mari's) to do that job, right? RIGHT?


>I have absolutely no doubt that
>had it not been for those
>skilled and selfless NPS Rangers and
>the members of Grand County Search
>and Rescue, Mari would not just
>have looked "big, black squirmy death"
>in the face...she'd be jumping with
>that "big, black squirmy" dude now.

And it's very nice to see that MY TAX DOLLARS (and Mari's) are buying such expertise. You act as if I'm supposed to be grateful that you do the job Mari and I pay you to do... while in the meantime, we're supposed to happily bend over so your so-called superiors -- who are ALSO PAID WITH MY TAX DOLLARS -- can stick it up our butts for 20 years.

You're out of touch with reality, sir, regardless of your technical and leadership skills in the SAR business... and as I said in another post, you ought to read Thoreau's "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience" and see how you have abdicated your moral responsibility by ignoring what your so-called superiors do and claiming -- when you are challenged to take a moral stand -- that you are "just doing your job." (Gee, I seem to remember a bunch of folks in the Third Reich using that excuse too.)


>I've read in the BASEboard that jumpers
>are always prepared for self-rescue...so their
>accidents will not put additional strain
>on local rescue groups.

More polemical BS, Frank -- or is this is a joke? Certain groups _do_ have the capability for self-rescue, but the vast majority have no more ability or gear to self-rescue than all the other recreationists you happily rescue without associated hounding, harassment and discrimination.

>The "Moab Party Crew" chose to jump
>a nearly 500-foot cliff with less
>than 200 feet of rope, "a
>few carabiners," and, obviously, less than
>adequate knowledge of how to deal
>with complications.

Oh give it a rest, Frank. You just described most of the bikers, climbers, hikers, boaters and accidental tourists you rescue as well. Once again, your discrimination is showing, sir; holding us to a higher standard than that which you accept from everyone else.

>Luckily, there happened to be a group
>of volunteers, and yes, NPS rangers,
>who had the expertise and the
>equipment necessary to deal with the
>situation. They didn't think twice
>about putting their lives (or New
>Year's Eve plans) in jeopardy to
>save someone's life.

Luckily? I don't think so. The volunteers are there because they want to be -- they are VOLUNTEERS... The rest of you guys... YOU"RE BEING PAID BY _MY_ TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO BE THERE, so cut the polemical crap, okay?

>Yet I have seen no acknowledgement of
>their efforts in this forum from
>any of you.

Maybe that's because IT'S YOUR _JOB_. You expect us to kiss your ass for doing the job _we_ pay you to do?

> Your tunnel-vision
>directs you to point the finger
>of blame (in the wrong direction)
>rather than try to understand how
>incidents such as this might have
>an effect on NPS and other
>governmental agency policies.

Uh-huh... and just how exactly do "incidents such as these" involving biking, boating, hiking, camping and climbing affect NPS and other governmental agencies? Are they used to continue discriminatory and corrupt NPS policies against all those groups too?

> If I had a jumpable cliff on my
>property, and you came to me
>with your all-too-apparent attitude,
> I'd lock the damn gate too.

But I wouldn't come to a private property owner with this attitude; this attitude is reserved for the Nazi Punks who I PAY with my taxes -- who then put me in jail when I try to jump from MY CLIFFS.


You see, Frank, that's where you are CLUELESS: The example you use reveals your attitude -- that somehow NPS is the owner of those cliffs. It is not; it is a caretaker force. It is the HIRED HELP that has decided it is actually the lord of the manor.

Well, you ain't, Frank. You were the hired help, just like your so-called superiors; they are hired by We The People to do our bidding, NOT to harass, prosecute, and discriminate against us for pursuing the recreation we choose.

And if you consider this to be an undesirable attitude, then Sig Heil to you too. I mean, throughout this condescending little screed of yours is woven YOUR attitude that poor little unwashed twits such as us ought to be grateful for the rescue service crumbs you throw our way, and not be uppity niggers -- I mean BASE jumpers -- about the larger issue of cliff jumping in OUR PARKS. That's the bottom line, Frank: Who would be jumping 400-footers in Moab (especially with 5 BASE jumps) when they could be doing 2,000-footers in Yosemite or Zion or the Black Canyon or Arches or Canyonlands or...?

You see, the policy environment which affects the physical environment is invisible to you, just as Marshall McLuhan said it would be. That's why it's hard for you to follow the notion that all this stuff is inter-connected. Now that you're retired, maybe you can read his book too (The Medium is the Massage (not "Message")).

>But you should also be aware that
>if you ever do jump a
>cliff in the Moab area, there
>will be some volunteer rescuers, and
>some very skilled NPS rangers, who
>will do their best to see
>to it that you live through
>the experience...whatever it might be.
>Yes, we even rescue $%#holes.

Cut it out, Frank. The one who most directly sees that I live through my cliff jumping experiences in Moab is _ME_. And please quit trying to paint NPS in glory because of the good work SAR does when your so-called superiors continue to be the real $%#holes in this equation.

I mean, really, Frank, when exactly are you going to have the moral courage to denounce this perverted policy that has been in place for 20 years?

And one final thought for you. I think your first post reflected your true character much better than your last, and it is my conclusion that you're most likely a good man, a good neighbor and a good father. But having said that, I want you to remember the old saying that came out of Third Reich:

The only way for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing.

Love,

BASE 44

[guest]

Not everyone in this sport wishes to align themselves with people who are continually on self-rightous tirades. There are other venues to be pursued and some people believe that attacking individuals of the NPS is not the way to accomplish anything. I personally would like to believe that Robin only speaks for himself. The BASE community has enough problems without alienating the people that are attempting to help.

And Robin, how about my tax dollars? I really don't want them spent rescuing you? Do I have a say here or would that be discriminatory???????

Until the BASE community starts approaching this as adults as opposed to your antigonistic cry-baby methods this sport will continue to be featured in the DARWIN awards. You tried civil disobedience, perhaps the next step should just be trying to be civil?!!!

[guest]

Blaming the victim is very fashionable among cowards.

Do you tell rape victims to be civil while they're being raped? You know the old saying: "Hey, you're there, you may as well enjoy it." Who knows, maybe you're the coward who came up with it.

Did you tell MLK Jr. he ought to shut up and stay in the "Colored only" motel and not offend your delicate little coward sensibilities?

And I suppose you thought Rosa Parks got what was coming to her when she was arrested for refusing to give up her bus seat to a white man...

Or excuse me, do you even know who these names are and what import they have for all of us?

"Just doing our jobs" is the mantra of those without the moral courage to stand up for what is right.

And you call _me_ self-righteous? Ol' Frank REEKS of self-righteousness, as do all the other Ranger Boys who sit smugly on the sidelines saying "Achtung, ve jusss be doingk our zzobbbzz" -- that is, until the call comes in and then they go chasing us into rivers and double-crossing us on civil disobedience deals and then denying any culpability for the consequences.

Whoever you are, you obviously went to public schools because you have no courage, no perspective and certainly no sense or knowledge of history.

"Be civil..." That's what all the slavemasters throughout history have said to their slaves. "Don't be uppity or we'll WHIP Y'ALL."

ANd just for the record: I did not participate in the October 22 civil disobedience except to write the press release.

ANd yes, I do know several of the rangers at Yosemite and have cordial relations with them and find them to be good men...

Which was my principal point with Frank: He's obviously a good man, and those rangers in Yo that I know are good men too, but good men -- by definition -- are morally obligated to DO SOMETHING when they see crime and injustice being committed.

THat's why I was hard on him -- to slap him and the other good men wearing Nazi Punk colors upside their conscience and maybe get them to realize that they are GOOD MEN not Nazi minions ... and act accordingly.

We've been doing the "civil" drill for 20 years, youngster (and I'm not referring to your chronological age) and the rape is still in progress, and Frank and Bob and all the rest of the good men in Nazi Punk colors are STILL standing idly by DOING NOTHING except claiming their paychecks and claiming that their job demands that they do nothing.

These good men need to WAKE UP and start a little civil disobedience of their own: When the calls come in, when they see a jumper, they need to look the other way, let them go, and not report it.

And they need to convince their colleagues to do the same. Only when these good men who are not our enemies get off their good assses and join us is anything going to get done. Only when the situation becomes critical are those cowards who call themselves superintendents and administrators going to stop raping us.

Approaching this as adults?

You uninformed bozo. Suppose you check out the 20 YEARS OF DOCUMENTATION of our civility: Carl Boenish, Jean Boenish, USPA, Will Oxx and a host of others have all tried the civil route and we are _still_ getting it up the butt from these cowards -- all while good men such as Frank and Bob and the rest stand by and DO NOTHING.

Would you consider Frank to be a good man if you were being attacked by a gang of thugs and he had the means to stop it and did nothing?

Even if he'd just helped a little old lady cross the street ten minutes before?


Love,

BASE44

[imported_mknutson]

I believe that S&R must be very exciting, and for all the supervisors that say you don't want to be up there, well I don't think thats true.

Law/policy makers are not our enemy in the NPS. Why? Because there are no written laws or policies against cliff-jumping in the national park. Or in this country for that matter.
The supervisors and park lawyers slap up with policies that do not even apply. They are not even applicable or have valid meaning in our context.

But the bottom line is, S&R and others that are only following orders are not to blame. You just happen to be at the front lines of our fight and the closest thing to our aggrevation.

You are not looking for it, and trust me, we rally don't want to go through a situation that we need to give it to you. But THANKS for times when we do need you.

Mick

[guest]

Mick’s free to say his piece, Robin is free to do likewise. These two fellows are cut from the same side-of-beef, the only diff is one's been in the oven longer than the other.

Mick is still idealistic while Robin has reached a state of critical rage. If you understand human nature it's easy to see. If you understand the history of BASE jumping it's even easier to see.

FACT: There is a subtle but very concerted effort in effect to curtail BASE jumping in this country.

Most present day jumpers have lived with that ban for only a few years. Other's however have lived under this ban, this rejection, this condemnation of something they dearly love for over 20 years and they no longer feel much like being compliant.

They are understandably finished being sympathetic to anything except total vindication.

It's one thing to hold up a list and say, "look, these X amount of people are dead, injured, and arrested due to this ban. It's another when you actually know and feel you have grown up with these same dead, injured and arrested BASE jumpers. You take it all much more personally.

If we don't prevail, I’m afraid Mick Knutsen can gaze deep into the eyes of Robin Heid and therein surely see his own future.

Nick

[guest]

you wrote,
"It was my fourth jump of the day on Thursday, my 10th BASE jump total (2 BD, the rest off cliffs in Moab), and it was a sunset load. We had jumped this particular cliff on the third jump of the day too. I went first, and had a left 180 on opening that turned extra fast due to a headwind."

HEADWIND!
what velocity headwind?
do you realize how stupid it is to do a short delay jump away from a sheer face into a headwind?

hopefully you do now.

i certainly hope you take this opportunity to greatly further your knowledge before making another flick.

hope you heal quickly and completely.

kleggo

[guest]

Obviously there is a -wide- grey area between this type of jump and a 3,000 foot cliff under the control of the NPS. However, where do you draw the line?

I understand the concept of licenses, but isn't that just another form of permit?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

By saying a person is unsafe and jumping a particular cliff is unsuitable are you playing the exact same game as the NPS? Isn't the decision to jump or not to jump ultimately up to the person jumping?


Paul

[imported_mknutson]

If you think you want to base jump....You MUST learn all of this stuff first! No short-cuts. No getting a buddy to throw you off of anything. You must show your dedication to your own life by dedicating yourself to get all the prerequisites.

In the end, it is the decision of the jumper and their own responsibility for the jump. I just think they need a hell of a lot more information than they have today so they can make a valid decision instead of just being a lemming.

[guest]

Base 44,

You may not like the National Park Service, in fact it appears you feel a certain hatred for them. While it is unfortunate that you feel this way about the NPS, please show some respect for the men and women who risk their lives everyday saving hikers, climbers, and occasionally BASE jumpers. Rescue personnel and rangers put their lives on the line everyday. To compare any part of the NPS, be it the administrators, superintendents, or other employees, to the Nazi party shows ignorance on your part. You have every right to critisize the NPS for what you feel is a set of unfair actions to a sport that you enjoy, that is your right as a tax paying citizen, but to call them Nazi punks is ridiculous. You don't have to like the NPS, but don't blame the NPS for accidents that you feel are caused by NPS policies on BASE jumping, that is like saying that outlawing the use of crack cocaine is responisble for the countless deaths from crack cocaine overdoses.

-thelowlander

[guest]

Base 44,

How can you compare BASE jumping to the Civil Rights Movement? Are you kidding me? Do you really think your struggle to gain acceptance really has anything in common with Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks, or other figures in the Civil Rights Movement? Your attempts to give your cause, wait no, it is just a sport, some acceptance has only shown you to be really ignorant. Remember you are participating in a sport, not an attempt to change what is really evil in the world. You cannot even begin to compare yourself to the likes of Martin Luther King, Jr.

-thelowlander

[guest]

The fact that you do not see the parallel means you have no idea whatsoever shat MLK stood for. It was MLK who said:

"Any man who isn't willing to die for something doesn't deserve to live."

Now, I know he sounds like a BASE jumper there, but that's what he said.

He also said:

"There can be no justice everywhere if there is injustice anywhere."

And you know what else? MLK took a stand against the Vietnam War because of that belief -- and took a lot of grief for it from PC bozos just like you who said he was "just" in the civil rights arena and shouldn't mix that with important issues of international politics.

If he were alive tioday, MLK would be _with_ us -- and he would be encouraging _you_ to set aside your prejudice and bad attitude and join with him joining us.

So before you try this line of disrespect again, I suggest you actually READ what MLK said and did and then get back to me.

Love,

BASE44

[guest]

Let's start at the bottom:

You wrote:
"... but don't blame the NPS for accidents that you feel are caused by NPS policies on BASE jumping, that is like saying that outlawing the use of crack cocaine is responisble for the countless deaths from crack cocaine overdoses."

First of all, there are _not_ countless deaths from crack cocaine overdoses. This is a myth way larger and much more evil than the anti-BASE myths promulgated by the Nazi Punk Service.

There are only 5,000 deaths from illlegal drug overdoses every year, 4,000 of which are from heroin -- and which are almost _all_ DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO ITS PROHIBITION because the purity is uncertain and people get more than they bargained for and a bunch of them die before the word gets out that the latest batch is strong and back off.

The remaining 1k deaths are mostly from cocaine overdoses, and a significant number of _those_ are also due to prohibition-created uncertainties over dosage and purity.

So yes, absolutel I'm saying the NPS prohibition policy has resulted in _uncounted_ numbers of deaths and injuries that would not have occurred if not for the more dangerous environment created by that prohibition... and thank you very much for bringing up an analogous subject that helps me prove my point. http://www.baselogic.com/forum/images/happy.gif

You wrote:

"You may not like the National Park Service, in fact it appears you feel a certain hatred for them."

I hate what they are doing to BASE jumpers because it is illogical, unfair and discriminatory.

You wrote:
"please show some respect for the men and women who risk their lives everyday saving hikers, climbers, and occasionally BASE jumpers. Rescue personnel and rangers put their lives on the line everyday."

Fine. I did acknowledge that, but I also said that they are _volunteers_: They do it because they love it, so maybe _you_ ought to show some respect for BASE jumpers because after all, we risk our lives every day too for something we love. And don't tell me we ain't doing something socially useful, either; our acts inspire and elevate the people who see the images we create -- unless, of course, they are Nazi Punks.

You wrote:

"To compare any part of the NPS, be it the administrators, superintendents, or other employees, to the Nazi party shows ignorance on your part."

No, baby, it shows a clear understanding of history, something with which you are clearly unfamiliar. The Nazi Party began as a small band of thugs and elected officials wwere sortere sort of ignored and shrugged off until they go so big and popwerful they seized control and started stomping their jackboots in everybody's face.

As you are no doubt UNaware, a Protestant minister named Martin Niemoller wrote the following poem while sitting in a Nazi prison:

When they came for the Jews,
I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Jew.
When they came for thecommunists,
I didn't say anything because I wasn't a communist.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I didn't say anything because I wasn't a trade unionist.
When they came for the Catholics,
I didn't say anything because I was Protestant.
When they came for me,
no one said anything because no one was left.

You wrote:

"You have every right to critisize the NPS for what you feel is a set of unfair actions to a sport that you enjoy, that is your right as a tax paying citizen, but to call them Nazi punks is ridiculous."

Okay, then tell me, just what would _you_ call a bunch of bureaucrats (not the rangers, their so-called superiors) who prohibit an activity using a bogus regulation, steal property, lie in court documents, and are such cowards they don't even put their national poolicy in writing, choosing instead to repeatedly repeat the absolute lie that it is up to each park superintendent to decide whether or not to issue permits for an activity that should, by NPS' own definitions, not require any permit?

Lowlanders????

[guest]

Base44,

It's too bad that you can't manage to keep this dialogue going with any sense of civility, that instead you resort to name calling. I do feel that in some cases you make some very interesting arguments for legalizing BASE jumping, but your lack of civility leaves you with little ground to stand on. I am actually in favor of BASE jumping though I do not do it myself. But I prefer not to carry on a conversation that can't be civil. I'd like to think I am a better person than that. You have shown yourself to be a very intelligent person, but you lack any type of good manners. I hope your revolution goes well.

Sincerely,

thelowlander(and as you mock this handle, you mock my heritage, so watch who you call a bigot)

[Mac]

"Mari's Gash"?

Is it?

[mknutson]

"Mary's Gash"?

Is it?
Me, Joe, Henry and Avery jumped Mary's Gash for 60 minutes....

Nice crack.